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Old 06-07-2023, 09:41 AM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,027,738 times
Reputation: 5139

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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
There is a difference between killing a soldier on the battlefield and a soldier that has surrendered and been captured. After all it is in Ukraine’s self interest to uphold the rights of POWs as that would encourage more Russian soldiers to surrender. Furthermore once those POWs eventually return home they would spread the news of how nicely they were treated and that Ukraine isn’t the real enemy.
And, by and large, in stark contrast to Russia, Ukraine has done that. It's naïve to think that mistreatment of PoWs is something that can be completely nullified on either side of any war, but Ukraine's violations of the Geneva convention have been so few and far between (but, of course, the few were amplified by Russia as it gives them fodder for continuing their own atrocities), it's hardly worth discussing.
Quote:
Also azov battalion isn’t some fringe group that is remotely comparable to proud boys. They are government sanctioned and has been incorporated into the Ukrainian National guard who openly uphold Nazie ideology and symbology.
It's an imperfect analogy, but given our previous admin's support for fringe groups, are we really going to split this hair?
Quote:
As far as Ukrainian attacks on Russians, I think it’s safe to assume that Ruth was referring to rusophone Ukrainians which is a different thing than Russian nationals which I’m assuming is what you thought the conversation was about.
I'd like her to clarify, but I will, once again, repeat, that the narrative of "where have you been for eight years while Ukraine was bombing Donbass" (this question has basically reached meme status at this point) is a cynically false one.
Quote:
In any case it was an internal issue of Ukraine and Russia shouldn’t have encouraged separatist movements over this issue and trigger a “civil war”. As bad as things may have been or were heading, there was still opportunity for rusophone Ukrainians to politically push back to ensure their rights and interests.
Precisely.
Quote:
It would be like if Trump invaded Canada when the Trucker protests were going on.
This one is also an imperfect analogy, because most if not all of the truckers were not American citizens, but sure, I'll give it to you.
Quote:
Also if you look deeper, I don’t think Russia really cares about Russian language rights in Ukraine, what really triggered them in 2014 was that they got insecure and thought that if they didn’t do something that Ukraine would fall out of the grasps of Russia and would no longer be a client state like Belarus. They were able to reign in Ukraine after the Orange revolution in 2004 but they were not confident they could pull it off again. But ironically all they have done is soured relations even more to the point that Ukrainians no longer think of Russian’s as a brotherly nation.
You're 100% spot on. Russia barely cares about Russian-speaking people within its own borders. It was an underhanded land grab. Russia couldn't even really afford to support Crimea - once again, it has a tough enough time making sure its own 140 million are fed - but EMPIRE! HISTORY! PRIDE! NUKES!
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Old 06-07-2023, 12:35 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,981 posts, read 106,527,725 times
Reputation: 115628
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
Am I? Is this not text YOU wrote?
Yes, but your initial response mischaracterized it as being about Ukrainians attacking Russia, the country. Re-read the back posts and see; they're preserved here for posterity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;

So, I ask you again. What Ukrainian attacks on Russians are you referring to and to what end?
I already answered that question. I don't know about the early parts of the war, which is why I've been asking about it. As to incidents after Feb. 2022, I answered that question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
All parts of the war, 2014 to the present. More specifically, since at the time we were talking about the video of the dead woman, I was referring to the videos Russians have put out in an effort to justify everything they were doing, beginning with the DNR/LNR and Crimea takeovers and up to and including today.
Says who? Moreover, so what? They're Ukraine's rogue group. Russia is using their right-wing ideology as pretense for this entire war. How would you feel if China invaded the U.S. if, say, a few of their nationals were beaten up in West Virginia by some Proud Boys?
It just means they're not entirely under the control of Ukraine's commanding officers, whoever they are, or Z, or whoever's in charge. So it's no surprise they've been cited as committing one or more war crimes. And yes, I know that Wagner is also a rogue group, which is a fact that supports my point about rogue groups. Well, and not to mention that the Russian army also behaves like a rogue group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
I am not disputing the fact that there are some war crimes occurring on the fringes for which Ukraine is responsible.
Oh, really? Not disputing? You could have fooled me, LOL!
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
But it's incredible to me that you continue to perseverate on the 0.01% while completely glossing over the other 99.99%. For every one invocation of "let's investigate Ukraine", you should be clamoring thousands of times over for Russia to be put on trial first. I'm not seeing that.
I was just trying to clarify whether the West had seen evidence in any form (photos, video, direct witnessing by journalists, or whatever) of any Uke attacks on Russians in the Donbas, back at the beginning of the conflict, since you and Frolov both said they had. That was news to me. But you've answered my question (finally; I don't know why it was like pulling teeth to get a simple answer, but thank you--I appreciate your patience, such as it was, haha). So we no longer have anything to debate. We're pretty much in agreement. Imagine that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil;
This source you linked to cites Amnesty International. It's pretty much a common fact these days that AI, wittingly or unwittingly, have turned into Putin's useful idiots, not least because they, like Justia and like yourself, are ostensibly putting Ukraine and Russia on equal footing when it comes to there being "bad people on both sides" and, in doing so, are basically legitimizing what Putin is doing, even though his "response" (which, of course, is a fallacy given he started the whole thing) is unconscionably disproportionate to the offenses he claims his people have suffered.A man comes to your home. He rapes and murders your daughters, he kills your husband, he brutally dismembers your dog and smashes your cat's skull on the wall. Then, for good measure, he chucks your washing machine out the window and takes a dump on your carpet. You somehow manage to escape, hide and then, when he, tired of his own brutality, pounds a bottle of vodka and passes out, you go Gerard Butler in "Law Abiding Citizen" on him. You see where I'm going with this analogy? I'm not saying murdering PoWs is cool. But I'm saying that one or two Russian PoWs killed is such small potatoes in comparison to thousands of civilians Russia has murdered, raped and kidnapped so far that talking about both groups in the same breath is, at a minimum, a rank example of whataboutism and is in incredibly poor taste. Let the war end, let Putin and his cronies hang in the Hague and let Russia use its continually increasing wealth (make no mistake - Russia continues to rake energy money in by the barrelful) to rebuild Ukraine - and then and only then can we talk about the three poor unarmed Russian soldiers and sticking the dude, whose entire village was wiped out by his victims' colleagues, in military jail. But not before.
Human Rights investigators will call out abuses no matter who perpetrates them. That's the way they work. That is not "whataboutism". That's impartial reporting. It is not legitimizing the aggressor. Obviously, the preponderance of evidence and abuses are on one side in particular, and their reports reflect that, and will continue to reflect that.


It's been great exchanging with you, fil. And just for the record, in case you have the wrong impression of me, I know all about RT--I hate it, lol, except occasionally they'd show something interesting, like a documentary on Native life in the far north. You do realize, don't you, that it's an electronic form of Pravda? What do you think the initials R T stand for? Think about it.

But I haven't had a TV since I don't know when, ages, so I haven't had to put up with anyone's televised media: Russia's, America's, the BBC, or anyone else. I know all about Russian propaganda, going way, way back . And US propaganda, which is why I've been so cautious since the this new round of the war.

Cheers.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 06-07-2023 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 06-07-2023, 01:12 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,981 posts, read 106,527,725 times
Reputation: 115628
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
There is a difference between killing a soldier on the battlefield and a soldier that has surrendered and been captured. After all it is in Ukraine’s self interest to uphold the rights of POWs as that would encourage more Russian soldiers to surrender. Furthermore once those POWs eventually return home they would spread the news of how nicely they were treated and that Ukraine isn’t the real enemy.

Also azov battalion isn’t some fringe group that is remotely comparable to proud boys. They are government sanctioned and has been incorporated into the Ukrainian National guard who openly uphold Nazie ideology and symbology.

As far as Ukrainian attacks on Russians, I think it’s safe to assume that Ruth was referring to rusophone Ukrainians which is a different thing than Russian nationals which I’m assuming is what you thought the conversation was about.

In any case it was an internal issue of Ukraine and Russia shouldn’t have encouraged separatist movements over this issue and trigger a “civil war”. As bad as things may have been or were heading, there was still opportunity for rusophone Ukrainians to politically push back to ensure their rights and interests.

It would be like if Trump invaded Canada when the Trucker protests were going on.

Also if you look deeper, I don’t think Russia really cares about Russian language rights in Ukraine, what really triggered them in 2014 was that they got insecure and thought that if they didn’t do something that Ukraine would fall out of the grasps of Russia and would no longer be a client state like Belarus. They were able to reign in Ukraine after the Orange revolution in 2004 but they were not confident they could pull it off again. But ironically all they have done is soured relations even more to the point that Ukrainians no longer think of Russian’s as a brotherly nation.
Yes (to the bolded), that's who I was referring to: Russophone Ukrainians. Great term. The whole post was very well said, as usual, grega. Excellent points. Thanks for referee-ing

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 06-07-2023 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 06-07-2023, 02:20 PM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,027,738 times
Reputation: 5139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Yes, but your initial response mischaracterized it as being about Ukrainians attacking Russia, the country. Re-read the back posts and see; they're preserved here for posterity.
Greg has clarified, which I appreciate as it has saved me from having to weed through 1600-some pages.
Quote:
Well, and not to mention that the Russian army also behaves like a rogue group.
Yeah, how about that... That's probably something that needs to be mentioned first, second and third. Again, the magnitude of rogue is simply incomparable on both sides. Russia is essentially destroying a country because of a small faction in its military that wasn't so nice to some russophones way back when.
Quote:
Oh, really? Not disputing? You could have fooled me, LOL!
I guess I did, all those times (two or three at last count) that I stipulated that yes, there are, indeed, war crimes on both sides.
Quote:
I was just trying to clarify whether the West had seen evidence in any form (photos, video, direct witnessing by journalists, or whatever) of any Uke attacks on Russians in the Donbas, back at the beginning of the conflict, since you and Frolov both said they had.
Assumes facts not in evidence. "Uke attacks on Russians in the Donbas" isn't a thing that's been proven to have happened. Things Russia said were "Uke attacks on Russians in the Donbas" are the images we've been discussing and yes, the West has seen them.
Quote:
Human Rights investigators will call out abuses no matter who perpetrates them. That's the way they work. That is not "whataboutism". That's impartial reporting. It is not legitimizing the aggressor. Obviously, the preponderance of evidence and abuses are on one side in particular, and their reports reflect that, and will continue to reflect that.
Calling these things out, miniscule in scale as they are, while the war in which there's a clear aggressor (who is using these disproportionately to validate its actions) and a clear victim, is legitimizing the aggressor. Yes, human rights groups should investigate war crimes committed by Ukraine (I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about this). But not NOW.
Quote:
It's been great exchanging with you, fil. And just for the record, in case you have the wrong impression of me, I know all about RT--I hate it, lol, except occasionally they'd show something interesting, like a documentary on Native life in the far north. You do realize, don't you, that it's an electronic form of Pravda? What do you think the initials R T stand for? Think about it.
The initials stand for "Russia Today". I've never made the connection between them and Pravda (I'm not sure one exists), but then I don't really tend to differentiate well between types of sh*t. It's all sh*t to me.
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Old 06-07-2023, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,664 posts, read 4,802,575 times
Reputation: 4862
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
Greg has clarified, which I appreciate as it has saved me from having to weed through 1600-some pages.Yeah, how about that... That's probably something that needs to be mentioned first, second and third. Again, the magnitude of rogue is simply incomparable on both sides. Russia is essentially destroying a country because of a small faction in its military that wasn't so nice to some russophones way back when.I guess I did, all those times (two or three at last count) that I stipulated that yes, there are, indeed, war crimes on both sides.Assumes facts not in evidence. "Uke attacks on Russians in the Donbas" isn't a thing that's been proven to have happened. Things Russia said were "Uke attacks on Russians in the Donbas" are the images we've been discussing and yes, the West has seen them. Calling these things out, miniscule in scale as they are, while the war in which there's a clear aggressor (who is using these disproportionately to validate its actions) and a clear victim, is legitimizing the aggressor. Yes, human rights groups should investigate war crimes committed by Ukraine (I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about this). But not NOW.The initials stand for "Russia Today". I've never made the connection between them and Pravda (I'm not sure one exists), but then I don't really tend to differentiate well between types of sh*t. It's all sh*t to me.
I don’t want to get bogged down in a debate, and I agree that the top priority should be focused on the war crimes that Russia is currently committing, however to me personally it wouldn’t make any sense for pro- Russian rebels in Donbas to bomb the cities they currently occupy namely Donetsk and Luhansk, which yes civilian apartments and hospitals were bombed. Whether they were intentionally targeted or if they were stray rockets and shrapnel that is still debatable (just like Russia debates that they are intentionally bombing civilians in Ukraine).

All that being said nothing that Ukraine did in the Donbas compared to what Russia did in Mariupol and Bakhmut. After all Donetsk and Luhansk are still functioning cities. Furthermore Russian-rebels also bombed Ukrainian controlled cities and the 14,000 people killed that Russian propaganda parrots, half of those were killed by pro-Russian rebels, so they have no moral high ground to stand on. And as bad as things may have been, or perceived to be right after the Maidan revolution, it was no where near as bad as triggering a nearly decades long war, and 2 million Ukrainia refugees ended up moving to Russia anyway, they could’ve moved to Russia without starting a war.
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Old 06-07-2023, 04:49 PM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,027,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
to me personally it wouldn’t make any sense for pro- Russian rebels in Donbas to bomb the cities they currently occupy namely Donetsk and Luhansk, which yes civilian apartments and hospitals were bombed.
There are a lot of things that Russia and their affiliates do that doesn't make any sense to normal people. But they have done and continue to do it all the same. Call it false flags, call it provocation, call it anything you want. For what it's worth, it makes even less sense for Ukraine to bomb their own territory (and Donetsk and Luhansk are certainly their own territory).
Quote:
Whether they were intentionally targeted or if they were stray rockets and shrapnel that is still debatable (just like Russia debates that they are intentionally bombing civilians in Ukraine).
Given the sheer magnitude of civil infrastructure that Russia has destroyed in Ukraine, either Russia has the worst aim in the world or they really are targeting non-military objects. Occam's razor suggests it's not the former.
Quote:
All that being said nothing that Ukraine did in the Donbas compared to what Russia did in Mariupol and Bakhmut.
Even assuming Ukraine was responsible for every casualty of Donetsk and Luhansk (which is not true), that's not even 100 people over eight years. Bucha alone should put paid to any and all comparisons and that's before we consider that Ukraine was NOT, in fact, bombing its own cities with the hopes that the bombs kill just their Russian-speaking population. That allegation is preposterous on its face, yet it's never stopped Russia from making those and other outlandish claims.
Quote:
After all Donetsk and Luhansk are still functioning cities. Furthermore Russian-rebels also bombed Ukrainian controlled cities and the 14,000 people killed that Russian propaganda parrots, half of those were killed by pro-Russian rebels, so they have no moral high ground to stand on. And as bad as things may have been, or perceived to be right after the Maidan revolution, it was no where near as bad as triggering a nearly decades long war, and 2 million Ukrainia refugees ended up moving to Russia anyway, they could’ve moved to Russia without starting a war.
I'm 100% with you here.
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Old 06-11-2023, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,133,626 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
He doesn't.
It wasn't sarcasm. I haven't lived in Russia or Ukraine since 1996, but I was very much aware of what was happening in Ukraine in 2014. The assertion that the West was somehow shielded from this information is BS. If you were interested at all in foreign affairs, specifically in that part of the world, you couldn't miss it. It was a blatant land grab by Russia under pretenses just as false as ones under which it started the full-scale war in 2022. Yes, it was during the time of internal turmoil in Ukraine during which a few people died, but Russia, as it so often does, made a mountain out of a mole hill to suit its opportunistic agenda.The image of the dead woman would do (as well it should have) very little to sway the West one way or another. It was one death, paraded out as the reason behind everything that transpired in the following decade.
For you, it's turmoil and several people killed, for Russians it's a logical chain of events that led to the current situation.

1. The unconstitutional military coup in Kiev, the coming to power of the pro-American government (more than 100 people died in Kiev).
2. Russia joined Crimea to protect the naval base and demonstrate that such actions by the West are unacceptable.
3. Russia began supporting separatist forces in the South-East of Ukraine, whose population was dissatisfied with the violent change of president (Yanukovych had good support in these territories). The seizure of power by the rebels was almost peaceful, the number of victims was minimal.
4. Ukrainian nationalists carried out punitive operations to suppress the separatist movement, many people were killed (the most significant was the events in Odessa on May 2, 2014).
5. Ukrainian government has launched a forceful suppression of the rebels in the southeast. Ukraine was the first to use heavy weapons in the conflict, civilians began to die.
6. Russia helped the rebels win several major battles in the South-East of Ukraine in 2014-2015, which resulted in the signing of the Minsk agreements.
7. Ukraine has not fulfilled the Minsk Agreements for 7 years, continuing to commit its armed forces. To solve the situation, Russia attacked Ukraine.

So where you see terrible Russia, Russians see that **** happens. But Russia did not start killing first, this is important for many Russians. It's not about one murdered woman, but about hundreds of murdered children and thousands of murdered people until 2022.
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Old 06-11-2023, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,133,626 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
I saw it. I'm not going to pretend to remember which channel carried it, but I definitely saw it on TV, not YouTube. Either way, given the image's sole purpose was to shock and inflame, its true value is negligible, so the criticism of "the West didn't see it" is nonsensical. There was nothing to see.
Yes. When Ukrainian shells tore apart children in Donetsk in 2014-2021, there was nothing to see.
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Old 06-11-2023, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,133,626 times
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The previous president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko (from 2:45):

Quote:
our children will go to school, their children will be kept in basements

https://youtu.be/zmhar0J27Hw


Now "our" children also kept in basements. And this is a tragedy, of course.
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Old 06-14-2023, 10:07 AM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,027,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
For you, it's turmoil and several people killed, for Russians it's a logical chain of events that led to the current situation.
Only for those looking for a justification.
Quote:
1. The unconstitutional military coup in Kiev, the coming to power of the pro-American government (more than 100 people died in Kiev).
None of which is Russia's business. Ukraine is not a satellite of Russia. It's its own independent nation. It can have as many pro-American unconstitutional coups as it wants.
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2. Russia joined Crimea to protect the naval base and demonstrate that such actions by the West are unacceptable.
Russia STOLE Crimea. The why, how and the rest are irrelevant.
Quote:
3. Russia began supporting separatist forces in the South-East of Ukraine, whose population was dissatisfied with the violent change of president (Yanukovych had good support in these territories). The seizure of power by the rebels was almost peaceful, the number of victims was minimal.
So, Russia interfered in the affairs of a sovereign nation and you're admitting to it freely. You see where you might have gone wrong there?
Quote:
4. Ukrainian nationalists carried out punitive operations to suppress the separatist movement, many people were killed (the most significant was the events in Odessa on May 2, 2014).
1). The events of Odessa were grossly blown out of proportion by Russian propaganda. 2). Unless Russian citizens were targeted and killed, Russia had no right for military intervention. And it certainly didn't have the right to annex territories that didn't belong to it.
Quote:
5. Ukrainian government has launched a forceful suppression of the rebels in the southeast. Ukraine was the first to use heavy weapons in the conflict, civilians began to die.
And this justified what Russia has done in the past nine years...how?
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6. Russia helped the rebels win several major battles in the South-East of Ukraine in 2014-2015, which resulted in the signing of the Minsk agreements.
Once again, were I you, I wouldn't admit so freely and flippantly to illegal military intervention in a sovereign nation's affairs.
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7. Ukraine has not fulfilled the Minsk Agreements for 7 years, continuing to commit its armed forces. To solve the situation, Russia attacked Ukraine.
Bullsh*t. This lie doesn't even deserve a more nuanced response.
Quote:
So where you see terrible Russia, Russians see that **** happens. But Russia did not start killing first, this is important for many Russians. It's not about one murdered woman, but about hundreds of murdered children and thousands of murdered people until 2022.
This is a complete fabrication. And even in the alternate universe in which it was true, it doesn't justify the daily murder of civilians and destruction of civil infrastructure Russia has been guilty of for the past year and a half.
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