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Old 06-14-2023, 10:08 AM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,058,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Yes. When Ukrainian shells tore apart children in Donetsk in 2014-2021, there was nothing to see.
I'm not going to dignify "where were you when Donbass was bombed for eight years" with a response. It's the most tired of all propaganda tropes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
The previous president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko (from 2:45):


https://youtu.be/zmhar0J27Hw


Now "our" children also kept in basements.
Thank you for illustrating all my points about you in a way I never could. Propaganda 101: tear something out of context that suits your narrative while ignoring what was really said. And in this case rely on the fact that your audience doesn't speak Ukrainian. Sorry, bub, it's your unlucky day that someone else here understands it.
Quote:
And this is a tragedy, of course.
You can shove your empty "thoughts and prayers" style platitudes.

Last edited by highlanderfil; 06-14-2023 at 10:18 AM..
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Old 06-14-2023, 10:14 AM
 
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Reputation: 5149
But, one needs to be consistent in his proclamations. As I've said, I am not going to try to debate propaganda victims, so Maksim_Frolov is going into the ignore list. If anyone else is interested in discussing Russia without the Channel 1 spin, I'm here for ya.
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Old 06-14-2023, 12:20 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,054 posts, read 106,836,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
For you, it's turmoil and several people killed, for Russians it's a logical chain of events that led to the current situation.

1. The unconstitutional military coup in Kiev, the coming to power of the pro-American government (more than 100 people died in Kiev).
2. Russia joined Crimea to protect the naval base and demonstrate that such actions by the West are unacceptable.
3. Russia began supporting separatist forces in the South-East of Ukraine, whose population was dissatisfied with the violent change of president (Yanukovych had good support in these territories). The seizure of power by the rebels was almost peaceful, the number of victims was minimal.
4. Ukrainian nationalists carried out punitive operations to suppress the separatist movement, many people were killed (the most significant was the events in Odessa on May 2, 2014).
5. Ukrainian government has launched a forceful suppression of the rebels in the southeast. Ukraine was the first to use heavy weapons in the conflict, civilians began to die.
6. Russia helped the rebels win several major battles in the South-East of Ukraine in 2014-2015, which resulted in the signing of the Minsk agreements.
7. Ukraine has not fulfilled the Minsk Agreements for 7 years, continuing to commit its armed forces. To solve the situation, Russia attacked Ukraine.

So where you see terrible Russia, Russians see that **** happens. But Russia did not start killing first, this is important for many Russians. It's not about one murdered woman, but about hundreds of murdered children and thousands of murdered people until 2022.
Part of the problem was, that Russia (and the Donbas separatists) would dismiss some stipulations of the Minsk agreements as "not applying" to them, so they continued hostilities in contravention to the terms of the treaties.

However, the conclusion of outside authorities involved in brokering the Minsk Agreements was:
Quote:
In the two weeks after the first Minsk Protocol was signed, there were frequent violations of the ceasefire by both parties to the conflict
This indicates that Ukraine had, indeed, been shelling in the Donbas before and after Minsk I in 2014, in case anyone doubts that...

Regarding further agreements:
Quote:
While campaigning in the lead-up to the 2 November elections held by the DPR and LPR in violation of the Protocol, Zakharchenko said "These are historical times. We are creating a new country! It's an insane goal". OSCE chairman Didier Burkhalter confirmed that the elections ran "counter to the letter and spirit of the Minsk Protocol", and said that they would "further complicate its implementation".

By January 2015, the Minsk Protocol ceasefire had completely collapsed. Following the separatist victory at Donetsk International Airport in defiance of the Protocol, DPR spokesman Eduard Basurin said that "the Minsk Memorandum will not be considered in the form it was adopted".
After Minsk II:
Quote:
Though the fighting generally subsided after the ceasefire came into effect at 0:00 EET on 15 February, skirmishes and shelling continued in several parts of the conflict zone. Shelling and fighting at Debaltseve continued, as DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the ceasefire did not apply to that area. In the south of Donetsk Oblast, fighting between DPR forces and members of the Azov Battalion continued in villages near Mariupol. By 16 February, Minsk II seemed on the verge of collapse. Separatists continued a heavy assault on Debaltseve. Both sides said that they would not withdraw heavy weaponry as specified by the agreement whilst fighting in Debaltseve was ongoing. Reuters described the ceasefire as "stillborn" in Debaltseve
More on Minsk II:
Quote:
It set out military and political steps that remain unimplemented. A major blockage has been Russia's insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms.
Signatories to Minsk II:
Not bound by Minsk II? Russia's representative signed the agreement.

Clarification:
Quote:
Point 10, for example, calls for the withdrawal of all foreign armed formations and military equipment from the two disputed regions, Donetsk and Luhansk: Ukraine says this refers to forces from Russia, but Moscow denies it has any forces there.
So, we see part of the problem; there's been a pattern on the part of Russia and the separatists in denying they're bound by some aspects of the agreements, for one reason or another.

But according to European observers and participants in the negotiations, Ukraine definitely was involved in violations of the agreements. In fact, as we speculated earlier in the thread, Azov was part of the problem. But I seem to recall from that part of the war, that Azov was clearly under the direction of Ukraine's government...? So...not acting on their own, but as part of Ukraine's defense forces pretty officially at that point in the years of conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ct-2022-02-21/

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 06-14-2023 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 06-15-2023, 05:08 PM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,058,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Part of the problem was, that Russia (and the Donbas separatists) would dismiss some stipulations of the Minsk agreements as "not applying" to them, so they continued hostilities in contravention to the terms of the treaties.
An even bigger part of the problem was Russia meddling in affairs it had no business meddling in, thereby necessitating the Minsk agreements in the first place.
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Old 06-16-2023, 12:18 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,054 posts, read 106,836,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
An even bigger part of the problem was Russia meddling in affairs it had no business meddling in, thereby necessitating the Minsk agreements in the first place.
Gee, ya think? Now, why didn't I think of that?


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Old 06-16-2023, 12:58 PM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,058,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Gee, ya think? Now, why didn't I think of that?


You seem to conveniently forget Russia's decade-long status as an aggressor in the region, as evidenced by the fact that you continue to insist on putting Ukraine and Russia on equal footing. Thought you could use a reminder.

Let me guess, you also believe that in the Arabo-Israeli conflict, there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides, don't you?
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Old 06-16-2023, 02:27 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,054 posts, read 106,836,948 times
Reputation: 115795
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
You seem to conveniently forget Russia's decade-long status as an aggressor in the region, as evidenced by the fact that you continue to insist on putting Ukraine and Russia on equal footing. Thought you could use a reminder.

Let me guess, you also believe that in the Arabo-Israeli conflict, there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides, don't you?
I don't follow the Arab-Israeli conflict.

It's impossible for me to forget Russia's not merely decades-long status as aggressor--please! You can do better than that! It's been over a century now. Well, if you go back to before the revolution, it's been hundreds of years. It would appear that you need a history lesson.
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Old 06-16-2023, 02:34 PM
 
5,681 posts, read 5,058,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I don't follow the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Good. Don't start now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
It's impossible for me to forget Russia's not merely decades-long status as aggressor--please! You can do better than that! It's been over a century now. Well, if you go back to before the revolution, it's been hundreds of years. It would appear that you need a history lesson.
Nah, thanks, though. I'm talking about the current war (as I believe we all are since the Minsk agreements are being discussed), not history in perpetuity.

And you accuse me of being dense? LOL. Some people's children...
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Old 06-30-2023, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,149,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
Thank you for illustrating all my points about you in a way I never could. Propaganda 101: tear something out of context that suits your narrative while ignoring what was really said. And in this case rely on the fact that your audience doesn't speak Ukrainian. Sorry, bub, it's your unlucky day that someone else here understands it.You can shove your empty "thoughts and prayers" style platitudes.
What did he really say? Did he talk about a truce and agreements?
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Old 06-30-2023, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,149,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highlanderfil View Post
But, one needs to be consistent in his proclamations. As I've said, I am not going to try to debate propaganda victims, so Maksim_Frolov is going into the ignore list. If anyone else is interested in discussing Russia without the Channel 1 spin, I'm here for ya.
Of course you see the situation better than people from Russia.
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