What's the most "northernized" country in southern Europe and the most "southernized" country in northern Europe? (work, stereotype)
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The Po valley is the italian equivalent of the upper Rhone Valley (Rhone-Alpes) in France. Those places are located at the same latitudes (Grenoble is at the same latitude as Turin, Lyon about the same as Milan or Venezia, just slighly kilometers further north), on the east or west side of the Alps. They have very similar climates and traditioanl culture on both sides is very similar. The french south west is more "southern" than the Po valley, with its strong spanish influences, even if the climate is not considered mediterranean in both cases.
The Po Valley is a large area, there are some marked differences between Piedmont, Veneto or Romagna.
Grenoble is colder than anywhere in the Po Valley. Lyon has the same annual average of Turin, which is the coldest major city in the Po Valley.
Romagna is more similar to the northern parts of Provence and Languedoc, it also has many similarities in landscape, agriculture, vegetation and cuisine.
Romagna is more similar to the northern parts of Provence and Languedoc, it also has many similarities in landscape, agriculture, vegetation and cuisine.
Grenoble is not colder than anywhere in the po valley. It has a very comparable temperature conditions with Turin. Turin has slighly colder winter lows than Grenoble.
The same for Lyon, whose climate is similar to Turin's, except that winter lows are significantly colder in Turin.
The same way in Milan. Its summer temperatures are quite similar to those of montelimar but winters are significativly colder. Winters in Milan are even bit colder than those of Lyon. Winter sunshine is noticeably more important in montelimar than in Milan. Landscape of middle rhone valley are more mediterranean-looking than Milan, Turin or Lyon Areas by the way.
Out of all the southern European countries (Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ex-yugoslavia) Spain felt more organized, clean, efficiently run. Even better than France which I find to be a frustrating place to be because of bad bureaucracy and tardiness on everything.
Southern Europe: Spain
Northern Europe: Belgium
Belgium is the messiest, craziest, most chaotic, colorful northern country in Europe.
You French ? If so I'm sorry if not, you're again exagerating...
And if Belgium is concidered to be in Northern Europe, I'm the Queen of England.
Grenoble is not colder than anywhere in the po valley. It has a very comparable temperature conditions with Turin. Turin has slighly colder winter lows than Grenoble.
The same for Lyon, whose climate is similar to Turin's, except that winter lows are significantly colder in Turin.
The same way in Milan. Its summer temperatures are quite similar to those of montelimar but winters are significativly colder. Winters in Milan are even bit colder than those of Lyon. Winter sunshine is noticeably more important in montelimar than in Milan. Landscape of middle rhone valley are more mediterranean-looking than Milan, Turin or Lyon Areas by the way.
The hills of Veneto, Piedmont, Emilia-Romagna, which surround the plain, haven't a mediterranean climate but this doesn't mean they look or feel "northern".
Turin is the nearest city to France and probably the most France-influenced in architecture and culture, and it looks more "northern" than the others. Many beautiful cities of the Po Valley look typically Italian and not "northern" at all, especially those of Veneto and Emilia-Romagna.
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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Turin is the nearest city to France and probably the most France-influenced in architecture and culture, and it looks more "northern" than the others. Many beautiful cities of the Po Valley look typically Italian and not "northern" at all, especially those of Veneto and Emilia-Romagna.
All these cities look typically northern Italian (strong colors is more a southern italian thing than southern). This obviously doesn't mean that that they are northern European. I'm not those of these people who think that northern italy is in central Europe, it is clearly not. All South of the Alpine chain (about 46 degree north) is souther Europe, the Po plain as much as much as the upper Rhone valley...
All these cities look typically northern Italian (strong colors is more a southern italian thing than southern). This obviously doesn't mean that that they are northern European. I'm not those of these people who think that northern italy is in central Europe, it is clearly not. All South of the Alpine chain (about 46 degree north) is souther Europe, the Po plain as much as much as the upper Rhone valley...
Yes, I've seen debates about northern Italy being central Europe, or even northen Europe...
Alpine areas are northern looking, especially Alto Adige, with marked Austrian influences and widely spoken German. This is probably the most northernized area in Southern Europe.
Milan is a city which look and feel more northern than the others in the Po Valley because it's a large, city, largely rebuilt after World war II, modern and dynamic, and for this reason may resemble some central european cities, but before large destructions it was different and more similar to the other cities of the plain.
About France, the general feeling I have (excluding the far south of Provence, Languedoc, Garonne) is that it's more organized and tidy than Northern Italy. So central France, if considered Southern Europe, looks more "northern" to me. Bordeaux for example, with its boulevards, new projects, modern trams, looks very tidy like nowhere in northern Italy (maybe Turin).
Even southern french cities, despite the landscape, architecture and vegetation, looks tidy compared to mediterranean italian cities.
Location: Segovia, central Spain, 1230 m asl, Csb Mediterranean with strong continental influence, 40º43 N
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Alpine areas are northern looking, especially Alto Adige, with marked Austrian influences and widely spoken German. This is probably the most northernized area in Southern Europe.
Do you think people there are so meticulous and so punctual as Germans are?
Do you think people there are so meticulous and so punctual as Germans are?
Yes, they are. Maybe not exactly like Germans or Swiss, but definetely different from the rest of Italy.
Also I've had the feeling that many of them use German as their first language, and speak Italian just occasionally (with German accent).
What are the most nothernized parts of Spain? Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, PaÃs Vasco, Cataluña I guess?
Also do you consider your region of Castilla a "northernized" area?
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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Originally Posted by mar89
Yes, I've seen debates about northern Italy being central Europe, or even northen Europe...
Alpine areas are northern looking, especially Alto Adige, with marked Austrian influences and widely spoken German. This is probably the most northernized area in Southern Europe.
Milan is a city which look and feel more northern than the others in the Po Valley because it's a large, city, largely rebuilt after World war II, modern and dynamic, and for this reason may resemble some central european cities, but before large destructions it was different and more similar to the other cities of the plain.
About France, the general feeling I have (excluding the far south of Provence, Languedoc, Garonne) is that it's more organized and tidy than Northern Italy. So central France, if considered Southern Europe, looks more "northern" to me. Bordeaux for example, with its boulevards, new projects, modern trams, looks very tidy like nowhere in northern Italy (maybe Turin).
Even southern french cities, despite the landscape, architecture and vegetation, looks tidy compared to mediterranean italian cities.
Boulevards are not a northern European thing at all. Historically the ancestors of 19th century boulevards that developped in Paris and in other big french cities were the provencal "cours" (like cours mirabeau in Aix en Provence, which are basically the same thing as the Spanish "Ramblas". This urban feature is found mainly in Iberia and France, but not much in Italy, that is true, and is not an historical urban feature in northern Europe.
The french classisicm in urban design and landscape architeture find its roots in Italian garden design, not in northern Europe. It spread to northern France when francis 1st invited italian renaissance artists in his court.
That is intersting that you counsider the urban design of a city like Turin to be "northern", designed cities is, since renaissance, more a southern European thing than a northern one. Most northern European cities has a medieval structure until the industrial revolution, which was not the case of many place in countries like Spain or Italy.
As for the "new projects" and modernity thing, to me I don't see it as a "northern" thing at all. Once again we just have to look at Spanish cities, which are usually more clean and modern than french ones (just have to compare Bilbao to Bordeaux, to notice that between both, it is Bordeaux that looks a bit "chaotic" or decayed. Most spanish cities have cleaner city centers, with more modern transportation than in France.
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