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Boulevards are not a northern European thing at all. Historically the ancestors of 19th century boulevards that developped in Paris and in other big french cities were the provencal "cours" (like cours mirabeau in Aix en Provence, which are basically the same thing as the Spanish "Ramblas". This urban feature is found mainly in Iberia and France, but not much in Italy, that is true, and is not an historical urban feature in northern Europe.
The french classisicm in urban design and landscape architeture find its roots in Italian garden design, not in northern Europe. It spread to northern France when francis 1st invited italian renaissance artists in his court.
That is intersting that you counsider the urban design of a city like Turin to be "northern", designed cities is, since renaissance, more a southern European thing than a northern one. Most northern European cities has a medieval structure until the industrial revolution, which was not the case of many place in countries like Spain or Italy.
As for the "new projects" and modernity thing, to me I don't see it as a "northern" thing at all. Once again we just have to look at Spanish cities, which are usually more clean and modern than french ones (just have to compare Bilbao to Bordeaux, to notice that between both, it is Bordeaux that looks a bit "chaotic" or decayed. Most spanish cities have cleaner city centers, with more modern transportation than in France.
Location: Segovia, central Spain, 1230 m asl, Csb Mediterranean with strong continental influence, 40º43 N
3,094 posts, read 3,577,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mar89
Yes, they are. Maybe not exactly like Germans or Swiss, but definetely different from the rest of Italy.
Also I've had the feeling that many of them use German as their first language, and speak Italian just occasionally (with German accent).
What are the most nothernized parts of Spain? Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, PaÃs Vasco, Cataluña I guess?
Also do you consider your region of Castilla a "northernized" area?
I would say the closer you get to the Pyrenees mountains, the more northernized everything is. However, the overal country has a slightly northernized feeling, but I bet those Italian Alpine valleys are way norhernized than the northeastern quadrant of Spain and therefore the rest of the country as well.
My region of Castilla where I live is located at the east side of it, so it belongs to the norhteastern quadrant to the Iberian peninsula, so yes, it is slightly northernized than, say, southern Andalucia, but as I said before, there are not big differences between the southwest and the northeast.
Last edited by overdrive1979; 07-19-2015 at 03:29 PM..
I would say that northern Italy with Milan is the most "northern" south-European one and Lithuania is the most "southern" north-European one.
As well i have heard the Catalonians being ´more northern´ compared to the other people in their area.
Grenoble is not colder than anywhere in the po valley. It has a very comparable temperature conditions with Turin. Turin has slighly colder winter lows than Grenoble.
The same for Lyon, whose climate is similar to Turin's, except that winter lows are significantly colder in Turin.
The same way in Milan. Its summer temperatures are quite similar to those of montelimar but winters are significativly colder. Winters in Milan are even bit colder than those of Lyon. Winter sunshine is noticeably more important in montelimar than in Milan. Landscape of middle rhone valley are more mediterranean-looking than Milan, Turin or Lyon Areas by the way.
Was going to say this, Montelimar feels definitely southern. Milan slightly less so. The former is sunny and windy with distinctive mediterranean vegetation. Milan is less sunny than most places in Rhone Alpes even. The landscape in Lombardia could almost pass for Burgundy in some places. And what with all that fog ?
I feel that north of the Po, many cities feel very tidy and organized like French cities would be. Verona is a good example, it is almost quiest for an italian city.
I'm ambivalent about Romagna. It does have very warm summers, but it is very green and lush in the summer due to the high humidity and thus it lacks the mediterranean vegetation that i associate with the southern feeling of those areas in France.
There are no real subtropical areas in France. Lyon would be the most serious contender in Rhone Alpes. Valence has a very specific climate. Toulouse would be the closest, even landscape wise, but winters are obviously quite a bit milder than in places like Forli.
Not to say that Northern Italy is northern europe of course. But then i don't consider rhone Alpes to be northern either. Transition to the south would be more appropriate.
Yes, they are. Maybe not exactly like Germans or Swiss, but definetely different from the rest of Italy.
Also I've had the feeling that many of them use German as their first language, and speak Italian just occasionally (with German accent).
What are the most nothernized parts of Spain? Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, PaÃs Vasco, Cataluña I guess?
Also do you consider your region of Castilla a "northernized" area?
Sudtirol is a transition area between the Latin and Germanic world, in Bolzano and its suburbs Italian has slowly become the main language (due to immigration from the rest of Italy) while in the countryside and in secondary cities most of the population still speaks German.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forgotten username
Was going to say this, Montelimar feels definitely southern. Milan slightly less so. The former is sunny and windy with distinctive mediterranean vegetation. Milan is less sunny than most places in Rhone Alpes even. The landscape in Lombardia could almost pass for Burgundy in some places. And what with all that fog ?
I feel that north of the Po, many cities feel very tidy and organized like French cities would be. Verona is a good example, it is almost quiest for an italian city.
I'm ambivalent about Romagna. It does have very warm summers, but it is very green and lush in the summer due to the high humidity and thus it lacks the mediterranean vegetation that i associate with the southern feeling of those areas in France.
There are no real subtropical areas in France. Lyon would be the most serious contender in Rhone Alpes. Valence has a very specific climate. Toulouse would be the closest, even landscape wise, but winters are obviously quite a bit milder than in places like Forli.
Not to say that Northern Italy is northern europe of course. But then i don't consider rhone Alpes to be northern either. Transition to the south would be more appropriate.
Maybe it's because i'm a Southerner but it surprised me how much cities like Padua and Trieste were organized, i almost didn't feel like being in my own country, i got even yelled at for walking a few centimeters off the zebra crossing. The police was also everywhere in Padua, maybe because they elected a far right wing mayor
Was going to say this, Montelimar feels definitely southern. Milan slightly less so. The former is sunny and windy with distinctive mediterranean vegetation. Milan is less sunny than most places in Rhone Alpes even. The landscape in Lombardia could almost pass for Burgundy in some places. And what with all that fog ?
I feel that north of the Po, many cities feel very tidy and organized like French cities would be. Verona is a good example, it is almost quiest for an italian city.
I'm ambivalent about Romagna. It does have very warm summers, but it is very green and lush in the summer due to the high humidity and thus it lacks the mediterranean vegetation that i associate with the southern feeling of those areas in France.
There are no real subtropical areas in France. Lyon would be the most serious contender in Rhone Alpes. Valence has a very specific climate. Toulouse would be the closest, even landscape wise, but winters are obviously quite a bit milder than in places like Forli.
Not to say that Northern Italy is northern europe of course. But then i don't consider rhone Alpes to be northern either. Transition to the south would be more appropriate.
You seem to have quite a lot stereotypes about Italy being cold, a wall of fog, similar to the Midwest and other amenities. Milan is not foggy, there are just a couple of foggy days in winter and it's almost never foggy in the city itself.
Romagna is very green and lush during summer? Just no, apart in the mountains.
The native vegetation is classified as mediterranean and the landscape isn't that different from parts of Languedoc or Provence. And high humidity is a feature of many coastal mediterranean climates in Italy.
Native vegetation includes holly oak forests along the coast, which completely disappeared through the centuries and replaced by the Romans with large pinewoods, and mixed broadleaf and semi-deciduous oaks in the plain and the hills. It's the same vegetation type of most central Italy, including Rome area for example.
Turin is usually associate with Baroque architectonic style. In fact the most of the center was built by the Savoy family after 1563 (year in which they moved the capital of their duchy from Chambery to Turin).
I think that (at least here in Italy) we are often associate with France also for historical reasons. In fact the duchy of Savoy, in particular at the beginning, was partially in nowadays France and partially in nowadays Italy. So, in particular before the unification, in that the mess of little states, we were probably seen as the "nearly french guys". Just as an example, Cavour and Vittorio Emanuele II spoke French better than Italian (but preferred to speak in our dialect).
Anyway, by an architectonic point of view, Turin is also characterized by the "portici" (arcades), by the tree lines along the main streets and by the preference of light-grayish colors for the buildings walls. The city looks also quite ordered, because the city plan still follow the original roman scheme in which all the streets are perpendicular one to each other.
Outside the historical center the city has grown a lot, after the opening of some factories (in particular the FIAT). Those buildings are more modern and much less characteristic.
For the ones who don't know Turin, this is a photo of the kind of buildings you are more likely to find in the historical center.
(that day was kinda cloudy, but it is not always like that of course.)
Turin is usually associate with Baroque architectonic style. In fact the most of the center was built by the Savoy family after 1563 (year in which they moved the capital of their duchy from Chambery to Turin).
I think that (at least here in Italy) we are often associate with France also for historical reasons. In fact the duchy of Savoy, in particular at the beginning, was partially in nowadays France and partially in nowadays Italy. So, in particular before the unification, in that the mess of little states, we were probably seen as the "nearly french guys". Just as an example, Cavour and Vittorio Emanuele II spoke French better than Italian (but preferred to speak in our dialect).
Anyway, by an architectonic point of view, Turin is also characterized by the "portici" (arcades), by the tree lines along the main streets and by the preference of light-grayish colors for the buildings walls. The city looks also quite ordered, because the city plan still follow the original roman scheme in which all the streets are perpendicular one to each other.
Outside the historical center the city has grown a lot, after the opening of some factories (in particular the FIAT). Those buildings are more modern and much less characteristic.
For the ones who don't know Turin, this is a photo of the kind of buildings you are more likely to find in the historical center.
(that day was kinda cloudy, but it is not always like that of course.)
This makes, from an architectural point of view, Turin much more similar to a few French cities than any Italian one. The difference in architecture between the nearby villages and Turin is quite noticeable, the Savoy family probably looked at Paris and other French cities as a model during their reign.
You seem to have quite a lot stereotypes about Italy being cold, a wall of fog, similar to the Midwest and other amenities. Milan is not foggy, there are just a couple of foggy days in winter and it's almost never foggy in the city itself.
Romagna is very green and lush during summer? Just no, apart in the mountains.
The native vegetation is classified as mediterranean and the landscape isn't that different from parts of Languedoc or Provence. And high humidity is a feature of many coastal mediterranean climates in Italy.
Native vegetation includes holly oak forests along the coast, which completely disappeared through the centuries and replaced by the Romans with large pinewoods, and mixed broadleaf and semi-deciduous oaks in the plain and the hills. It's the same vegetation type of most central Italy, including Rome area for example.
Where i live does not look mediterranean at all to be honest, and the areas close to the po are often foggy even in the spring time. My gf works north of Bologna and her relatives are from there and she often complained about the fog while driving as late as may, whereas it was sunny here.
That said, i think it is more similar to Drome area in France or to areas around Toulouse than like, say, Marseille or Provence.
No stereotypes, i've seen it with my own eyes....
Not northern of course, but there are typical features of the mediterranean vegetation in France which i haven't seen around here. Tuscany feels a lot more similar to Southern France IMO.
South if France is very sunny, windy and dry though, so obviously it is going to feel a little different from coastal central and southern Italy with its muggy stable summers.
I even found rome to be pretty green when i went there, but i thought the same in Barcelona.
Puglia feels very mediterranean to me, a lot drier.
Last edited by forgotten username; 07-20-2015 at 02:15 PM..
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
2,825 posts, read 5,266,165 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by improb
This makes, from an architectural point of view, Turin much more similar to a few French cities than any Italian one. The difference in architecture between the nearby villages and Turin is quite noticeable, the Savoy family probably looked at Paris and other French cities as a model during their reign.
Historically it is more likely the reverse. It is the french architects and urban planners that looked at the baroque italian urban design and tryed to import in france in the classical times. Before the 18th century all french cities were medieval structures, including Paris. Italian renaissance brought to france gave birth to thefisrt french style design with the versailles and the big garden design of le notre. Later, classical urban design spread to some other squares or parts of cities (mainly Bordeaux, before Paris), but it still was limited to small areas. French cities were mostly medieval structure when Turin was already a city with a baroque style of design, incuding Paris. Paris becale what it is now with its large boulevards and perspectives (an italian invention), only in the 19th century... When turin was already not independant but part of unified Italy... At the same time when Barcelona became a modern city with Cerda exeimple part of the city (the grill part of Barcelona which makes today most of the city).
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