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I'm not saying anything of the sort and you know it!
I'm simply stating that while all armies commit atrocities, Russia has displayed the rare tendency to commit atrocities upon it's own people under more than one leadership regime and over many decades. You disagree. So what?
Your statement about the tactical reason for Operation Barbarossa completely ignores the facts of history and therefore not worthy of an argument.
Your condescending reference to me educating myself says more about you and your ignoring the realities of history to suit your agenda and in that regard, again, not worthy of rebuttal.
Listen, I don't want to hijack this thread, but when you are saying that German troops were "rushing to surrender to allies" because Russians had some "reputation" - you are twisting the truth. And the truth is, the allies didn't see/were not subjected to a fraction of atrocities that Russians were submitted to by Germans - the civil population first of all. Germans were well-aware of it, so obviously they were looking for more merciful way out of their misery.
As for the rest - I don't need your "rebuttals." Not from someone with that kind of "knowledge" - no, thanks.
You are confusing Russia with Russians. Hating all Russians for what the Russian government has done is total BS but hating Russia for what it has done is a reasonable thing to do in this part of Europe.
This is what I meant. No, I don't hate individual Russian people and I treat them with same respect as I do to all others. I dislike the entity called Russia, especially its leadership sitting in the Kremlin. I dislike the the siloviks and oligharcs who act completely reclessly towards everything and everyone, including their own people, and having no respect for law and democracy. I also dislike the Putinist-Kremlinist parrots who spew their propaganda and try to rewrite history.
I don't like very much the Russian mindset and manners either, but I tolerate them, and for example the Russian minority in Finland I have no problem with. Actually, when Putin came to power I even thought "now the chaos might be over and Russia will become a normal Western country, nice." Bollox. Russia showed what kind of country it is. Again. First in Georgia, then in Ukraine.
This is what I meant. No, I don't hate individual Russian people and I treat them with same respect as I do to all others. I dislike the entity called Russia, especially its leadership sitting in the Kremlin. I dislike the the siloviks and oligharcs who act completely reclessly towards everything and everyone, including their own people, and having no respect for law and democracy. I also dislike the Putinist-Kremlinist parrots who spew their propaganda and try to rewrite history.
I don't like very much the Russian mindset and manners either, but I tolerate them, and for example the Russian minority in Finland I have no problem with. Actually, when Putin came to power I even thought "now the chaos might be over and Russia will become a normal Western country, nice." Bollox. Russia showed what kind of country it is. Again. First in Georgia, then in Ukraine.
The past is the past, but we won't forge.
Your bad. Totally the wrong thing to think. They did report in Finland, didn't they, that he's ex=KGB? Now, I wouldn't blame you for thinking that Russia had a shot at normalcy when Medvedev came into the Kremlin. But that little dream didn't last long, even though he actually tried to do some positive things.
The question is, who will Putin set up as his successor? I guess it doesn't matter. As I always advise people about Russia, it's "The more things change, the more they stay the same". Sorry you have to live next door to them. Though, again--it's a great place for vacations.
Listen, I don't want to hijack this thread, but when you are saying that German troops were "rushing to surrender to allies" because Russians had some "reputation" - you are twisting the truth. And the truth is, the allies didn't see/were not subjected to a fraction of atrocities that Russians were submitted to by Germans - the civil population first of all. Germans were well-aware of it, so obviously they were looking for more merciful way out of their misery.
As for the rest - I don't need your "rebuttals." Not from someone with that kind of "knowledge" - no, thanks.
Listen yourself:
Fact: German troops AND civilians were "rushing to surrender to western allies" once it became clear loss was inevitable. They were doing that BECAUSE the Russian reputation was terrible:
Estimates of up to two million rapes occurred in Russian held German territory not counting Hungary and Vienna and those rapes continued well after the war was over until 1948 when public opinion forced Russia to confine it's troops to military installations and checkpoints to isolate them from civilian population. They behaved not as victors but as conquerors. Stalin endorsed that behaviour because he was a tyrannical despot himself.
This is not propaganda as you would have us believe but documented historical fact.
No one is making the case German behaviour during the war was not abhorrent, but Russia's treatment of civilian non-combatants was every bit as bad or worse and that behaviour continued well into the 50's and probably beyond.
Fact: German troops AND civilians were "rushing to surrender to western allies" once it became clear loss was inevitable. They were doing that BECAUSE the Russian reputation was terrible:
Estimates of up to two million rapes occurred in Russian held German territory not counting Hungary and Vienna and those rapes continued well after the war was over until 1948 when public opinion forced Russia to confine it's troops to military installations and checkpoints to isolate them from civilian population. They behaved not as victors but as conquerors. Stalin endorsed that behaviour because he was a tyrannical despot himself.
This is not propaganda as you would have us believe but documented historical fact.
No one is making the case German behaviour during the war was not abhorrent, but Russia's treatment of civilian non-combatants was every bit as bad or worse and that behaviour continued well into the 50's and probably beyond.
That is my last effort to respond to you on this.
I am familiar with your posts on History forum and it has been explained to you ( and people like you) why an attempt to equate the USSR with Hitler's Germany during the WWII was not going to work, so please bring your "effort" back there, on History forum.
I'm not a Russian, but I was born in 1982. We didn't need a boogey man under your bed, we had the USSR. The USSR was something so scary, alien and violent that I couldn't imagine. Also because my grandfathers had killed Russians in WWII, they told horror stories how terrible the moloch in the east is.
When the Soviet Union collapsed, it's still the best day of my life ever. The fear was gone. The beast wasn't defeated, but it was detained for a while. And as an adult I can face that beast now with courage.
And I will also teach my children to hate Russia. A legacy passing down.
Posted by erasure: "I am familiar with your posts on History forum and it has been explained to you ( and people like you) why an attempt to equate the USSR with Hitler's Germany during the WWII was not going to work, so please bring your "effort" back there, on History forum."
Points of contention:
You are most certainly NOT familiar with my posts in the history forum.
My posts in the history forum total 4 in 2012 with none of them discussing this issue or anything even remotely similar to comparing the USSR to Hitler's Germany. Anyone can do a search to verify my veracity. You think you're pulling a fast one.
Secondly What the h*** do you mean "people like me"?
Were I to make any attempt to equate WWII era USSR to Germany, it would not be a difficult proposition at all. Actual recorded and verified history is handy that way.
Posted by erasure: "I am familiar with your posts on History forum and it has been explained to you ( and people like you) why an attempt to equate the USSR with Hitler's Germany during the WWII was not going to work, so please bring your "effort" back there, on History forum."
Points of contention:
You are most certainly NOT familiar with my posts in the history forum.
My posts in the history forum total 4 in 2012 with none of them discussing this issue or anything even remotely similar to comparing the USSR to Hitler's Germany. Anyone can do a search to verify my veracity. You think you're pulling a fast one.
Secondly What the h*** do you mean "people like me"?
What do I mean "people like you?"
People who sound the same on History forum ( and probably not only there.)
"How brutal Russians were during the WWII," "Stalin was worse than Hitler," blah-blah.
So it were not you on history forum - sorry, but you sound no different.
So please take your discussion of the WWII to History forum, figure out what "GeneralPlan Ost" was all about, and then speculate whether "Russian treatment of civilians was every bit as bad or worse."
I am sure there are people there that can enlighten you on this matter, but this thread is about the 80ies and the Cold War.
You are confusing Russia with Russians. Hating all Russians for what the Russian government has done is total BS but hating Russia for what it has done is a reasonable thing to do in this part of Europe.
You're right, that is a big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete
This is what I meant. No, I don't hate individual Russian people and I treat them with same respect as I do to all others. I dislike the entity called Russia, especially its leadership sitting in the Kremlin. I dislike the the siloviks and oligharcs who act completely reclessly towards everything and everyone, including their own people, and having no respect for law and democracy. I also dislike the Putinist-Kremlinist parrots who spew their propaganda and try to rewrite history.
I don't like very much the Russian mindset and manners either, but I tolerate them, and for example the Russian minority in Finland I have no problem with. Actually, when Putin came to power I even thought "now the chaos might be over and Russia will become a normal Western country, nice." Bollox. Russia showed what kind of country it is. Again. First in Georgia, then in Ukraine.
The past is the past, but we won't forge.
I guess it was the harshness of your first post that made me take it the wrong way. This i can agree with.
Yeah i read about that and agree that is a terrible history, but that's a long time ago, it's the past. And I didn't make this comment without thinking.
I was raised the same way to hate/dislike Germans because of what they did to us in the war. Germans were bad people, they were all Nazis, couldn't be trusted and even their language was ugly and mean.
This was because my grandparents were dragged out of their home by Nazis and thrown on the street (with my grandmother pregnant), beaten up, they plundered their house and burned it to the ground. My other grandmother also had a terrible time in the war but never talked about it, but when my aunt met her old friend from kindergarden 40+ year later and she restored the relationship with her old friend, my grandmother broke all contact with my aunt, because apparently the father of that girl was NSB during the war. Now that girl wasn't even born yet at the time of the war, but nevertheless my grandmother didn't speak to my aunt for 8 years!!!
I can understand this hate from old folks that have seen the war, but not from young people that didn't.
Now I've worked for several years in Germany and sometimes vacation there and I've come to know Germans as very good, friendly people from a beautiful country. And i think if a Finn would go to Russia he'd find out there's some pretty nice folks over there as well.
It would be crazy if I would raise my children to hate Germans for something that long ago. And I think the same goes for Finns and Russians. The past is the past.
You couldn't have said it perfectly. I have been having issues with Russians when it came to the Soviet Union as others have had. Believing the Soviet Union to be the equivalent to Nazi Germany and people who were born in the Soviet Union were evil as well because they were raised to be that way.
My parents to a minimal extent and definitely my grandparents kinda raised me to be that way because they had that Cold War mentality of the Soviet Union being the ultimate evil of the world and the people are just as bad as the govt. for supporting the govt. Same applies with Putin and Ukraine right now, BUT overtime I realized that the people are not to blame and there are some good Russians out there, especially ones in the U.S. and other countries and even in Russia itself as you said.
Not even hating a group of people, but to simply not like them period is wrong and to an extent racist! A friend of mine once told me that I had to make a decision to either like Russians or not.My choice was to like Russians obviously! Otherwise I would not bother asking this question in the first place. I like if not love Russian people and their culture because they are nice people and I have met quite a few of them that are really pleasant to be around. Especially the ones in my generation or age group, but I have no idea why they try to literally disguise their accents with American accents just because they are in the U.S.A! Can anyone explain that one to me because that is awkward to me?
That's all that I have to say when it comes to this response.
As for the Finnish guy or girl, he or she ought to be ashamed of his or herself because that is just plain wrong as I have just stated and as the guy I am quoting from has stated. That's equivalent to saying that I dislike all Greeks because they support their govt. and hate Macedonians just because they took the name of a province of theirs or that I dislike all Bolivians and Argentinians because they support their govt. that happen to hate America! It's ludicrous!
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