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For several centuries until the end of WWII, major cities such as Gdansk (Danzig), Szczecin (Stettin), Slupsk (Stolp) and Wroclaw (Breslau) along with the rest of western Poland and almost the entire Baltic coast was part of the Prussian Empire and later Germany, with majority ethnic German-speaking populations, and in many of them a very small Polish minority. After WWII, these areas were annexed to Poland and almost all ethnic Germans were forcibly removed and relocated to East Germany, and forcibly repopulated with eastern Poles from what would become Lithuania, Ukraine and Belarus, into the former homes of expelled Germans.
Poland before WWII:
Poland today:
It would be interesting to hear the opinion from Germans and Poles regarding this subject. These areas had before only been under Polish rule for more than 1,000 years ago, but has a hundreds of hundreds of years old Prussian and German history and had a German-speaking majority until WWII ended. Do you feel they are rightfully Polish or rightfully German cities? Was it a worthy replacement for the enormous amount of Polish territory lost to the Soviet Union? Was it right to throw out millons of Germans from their ancestral homes in territories that had German majority for centuries? How do you who live in these cities feel about that you have no history there?
Last edited by Helsingborgaren; 01-19-2016 at 05:12 PM..
Territories in Eastern Europe changed hands many times over the centuries. Even today, you have pockets of ethnic groups who got "left behind" (Hungarians in Romania, Romanians in Ukraine, etc.) Since 1945, Poland has been the "purest" of Eastern European nations (they have some Kashubians).
As it is now, all the "ziemie odzyskane" ( "re-gained territories") as the communist propaganda used to call them, meaning the German territories that are now a part of Poland feel... well, Polish. After all this time. I know, I grew up 30km south of Szczecin, just a stones throw from the Polish-German border. One can see the old architecture is somewhat different, but that's about it. How do we live in these cities, with no history ? Quite comfortably actually, and if you think we have no history here you're mistaken. History of Poland and Germany has always been connected. There are many museums, landmarks etc, we celebrate the local history regardless of the nationality of who we now consider our ancestors.
Generally no Pole wanted this, really. Some of our deepest historical and cultural roots, places like Vilnius or Lviv were simply taken away from us, and for them we got what was left of eastern Germany after the Red army came through.
Many Poles still feel betrayed by the western allies - despite everything that happened, despite the sacrifices of the Polish people, when the dust settled the country was given away to Stalin. Poles weren't allowed to march during the victory parade in London, despite serving valiantly in for example, the battle of Britain, the capture of Monte Cassino or the operation Market Garden. Every single decision that counted, regarding the future of Poland, was done behind its back. As a result, the country that has always resisted communism and bolschevism and whatnot, that defeated the Red army in 1920 when they were coming to "make europe communist", my country.. we ended up behind the Iron Curtain.
The soviets wasted no time and started a several decades long sociological experiment, and to some extent the succeeded - the country that for centuries was one of the most "free" in Europe, where many ethnicity and religions met without fear of persecution (why do you think there were so many Jews in Poland ? they didn't come here because we were so antisemitic, that's for sure. Most of the polish antisemitism (which btw isn't as prevailing as some people seem to think,not by a long shot) is a result of the 20th century, 2 world wars and all the trauma that they brought. What I have to add here is that it always makes me sad how in the western world, ww1 is perceived through the western front only, when the eastern one was in many ways as tragic, especially for Poles - since there was no Poland on the map then, Polish people were drafted into armies of both sides and had to fight each other, and on the Polish land. This country turned in to a ethnic and cultural monolith the country is now, or at least they tried as it's not that clear cut as they'd like. We have the Kashubians, the Silesians, a German minority (with a permanent representation in the parlament!), there are the Muslim Tatars in the east.
Anyway, as I'm rambling - no, back then no one considered them a worthy replacement. Many don't still today. But people accepted how things are now, only the most extreme fringe groups want to regain the land we lost to the east. A handful of internet trolls basically.
Was it right to throw the Germans out ? Of course not. Thing is, back in that day, there were very few things going on that "were right". Was it right for the Germans to run most of their death industry from the territory of occupied Poland ? Was it right for the Soviets to decide the fate of Poland ? Was it right for the soviets to keep virtually all the war reparations Germany paid to Poland ? (or for Poland to abandon the claims to them, because uncle Joe told them to?)
Was it ok for the allies to abandon Poland ?
What is done is done, this is all history. I might sound bitter, and to some extent I might be, but I'm really just sad at what happened and amazed at how well it turned out for us in the long run - but not by design, but by accident. Right now Poland is a well developing country, a member of EU and NATO.
The bottom line to my rambling rant is this: nothing here is simple and if you really want to know more about the complicated history of Poland, I suggest you grab one of the many books about Poland, ww2 or the region in general by professor Norman Davies.
These areas had before only been under Polish rule for more than 1,000 years ago
It's not true while referring to all territories mentioned. Szczecin indeed was not under Polish rule for over 1000 years. Still, during that time it has not always been under German rule - in medieval times it was reigned by domestic, Slavic originating dynasty.
East Prussia was occupied by different German factors since 14th century (Teutonic Knights, later converted to Protestantism). In 16th century it became again dependent from Poland and then in 17th century finally splinted from it - as a result of a Swedish invasion. Still Polish people were present there, even just before WW2 (being harassed by Germans).
Gdansk (German: Danzig) has been independent city for most of its history. Indeed it was German speaking but till the era of Napoleonic Wars also strongly protecting its own, independent identity and being opposed to surrounding Prussian Kingdom. Since the reign of Stefan Batory on the throne of Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth (elected in 1576) Gdansk was loyal to Poland. Later, after partition of the country, it welcomed Napoleon as a liberator against the Prussian oppressors. Only after Napoleon's fall, it has begun to adopt German identity. However Poland has never forgot about its ties with Gdansk and its significant role. At Versailles conference Poles managed to receive status of the free city for Gdansk, were Polish interests were secured. At the outbereak of WW2, still 8% of Gdansk population were Poles and a direct reason of the hostilities with Germany was rejection of Polish government to withdraw from the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yac
no, back then no one considered them a worthy replacement.
There were some who did. I mean communists and some pre-war nationalists.
First group was not numerous before the war - however visible and somehow having impact on country's political situation. At the end of the war their ranks started to grow, due to predicted outcome of warfare. In 1948 Polish Worker's Party (PPR) counted c.a. 1.6 million members. They supported the official stance of the newly power installed by Soviets.
Second group were representatives of a faction named "National Democracy" (ND). It was the biggest party in pre - war Poland (however after coupe of 1926 not being at power). During the war it splinted - part of them escaped to Britain and formed a faction on exile. Some however stayed in Poland, and allied with communists. The reason of that was that the shape of a new post-war Poland was quite complementary with their vision - ethnically homogeneous state, which got rid of poor and backward eastern borderlands in exchange for well developed and rich western territories. A few of ND activists became important figures in communist Poland after WW2.
Last edited by zymnos; 01-20-2016 at 03:19 AM..
Reason: grammar correction
I always thought that the Oder-Neisse border, unilaterally imposed by Stalin in 1945 with the complicity of the Western Powers who didn't get a damn over the recent vanquished Germany - the Cold War hadn't started yet, it would start a bit later in 1947-are completely unfair , in fact it's a gross violation of International laws. In all fairness , if the Allied Powers hadn't sought an immediate revenge over the Fallen Nazi regime, Germany after WW2 should have been back to its 1919 borders-those of the Versailles Treaty-. Now of course it's too late, but I always feel uneasy when westerners - so keen to criticize present -day Russia usually- accept without blinking an eye former Stalin's and Soviet's border designs in central and western Europe. It reeks of both anti-German and anti-Russian double standards.
My elder wife, who was older than me, was friendly with an East Prussian woman, who was older than her. And her friend, who was, by then, settled in Munich, would tell her about the times that she had before the war in what we took to be her ancestral home. Her family lived in a great house, and it members were each well-educated to the extent that they were fluent in Polish. She recalled those times with fondness and said that they were especially fond of interacting with Polish people. When Hitler & Co took power in Germany and put poorly-educated members of his mob into office, some were less-than-capable of doing their work properly because of their poor command of Hochdeutsch. She found employment in teaching them German
This is a map (from 1963)of the Polish railway network. The black line that goes through the middle is roughly the partition border from 1795 between the German and Russian territories. You can see the same pattern here In fact, many issues are divided along this line, though the differences have been.
Just something I assumed c-d members would appreciate
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Two remarks
In fact, many issues are divided along this line, though the differences have been.
