Why don't muslims in Europe integrate as well as they do in the US? (English, speak)

[FBF]

Originally Posted by Ariete

And it's just not only Muslims who experience everyday racism, it's all non-European immigrants. Even more so, as Europe is really edgy and nervous now with the refugee crisis and everything.
Just a week ago the country was shocked when a 11-yo boy named Valtteri stepped up. Adopted from South Africa, he told on national TV how he is called by the N-word, or like "you have the skin colour of poo". By adults. And if he's alone on a bus stop, the bus drivers don't always even stop for him. Even the president called out that this must stop: Niinistö shocked by 11-year-old boy's experiences of racism in Finland

Also older immigrants or sons of them have stated that they've noticed a clear rise in everyday racism during the past few years. Opinions which people kept for themselves before, seem to have surfaces and feels that they can say out loud anything. Even towards children. And some of the Roma beggars have told that people sometimes spit on them.

And if it's like this in relatively civilised Finland where you don't normally approach really any stranger on the street, I wonder how it is in barbarian countries, like Hungary.

Which is why I do not frequent Northern Europe very often! Too bad since I love their food.

I have a very Spanish name and look Mediterranean, but in Scandinavia and the UK, they assume I am Middle Eastern and light skin Pakistani (Muslim) that they do not talk to me and specifically excluded me on pub walks being the only non-Northern European person in the group.

I remember taking a easyjet flight from Milan to London and the flight attendant (ironically of African American descent) was very nervous or shocked that I used the front toilet when other people (the Northern European looking people) have before me and as soon as I got out, he went in and called the captain to make sure nothing was amiss and I did not put anything! Why did they not look at a passenger list to see my name which hints of my origins is beyond me, but nonetheless, Europe and USA has become paranoid over Mediterranean or racially ambiguous looking people.

It was even worse when aboard the Queen Mary 2 that the crew search my room with a big clear on in my front door indicating they were checking for bombs and drugs in my stateroom despite me already going through security before we sailed off and I never left the ship!



France and Spain generally knew I was Latin American (some thought I was Southern Spaniard or Italian) and I received less stares, partly because both have Mediterranean coasts and some of their people over there look similar to me. In the USA, Latin American means you suppose to look very indigenous, dark skin, and short....and since I do not look like that they question my ethnicity whenever I leave and come back into the USA!

Idiots!

[Ariete]

Originally Posted by FBF

Which is why I do not frequent Northern Europe very often! Too bad since I love their food.

I have a very Spanish name and look Mediterranean, but in Scandinavia and the UK, they assume I am Middle Eastern and light skin Pakistani (Muslim) that they do not talk to me and specifically excluded me on pub walks being the only non-Northern European person in the group.

You don't have to worry about that. Most of us behave well and are used to people of all skin colour. I would still dare to say that on average Northern Europe is less racist and discriminating than Eastern and Southern Europe. And certainly better travelled and educated. We don't think that anyone who is not blonde and blue-eyed is an evil Muslim.

[nei]

Originally Posted by Ariete

Also older immigrants or sons of them have stated that they've noticed a clear rise in everyday racism during the past few years. Opinions which people kept for themselves before, seem to have surfaces and feels that they can say out loud anything. Even towards children. And some of the Roma beggars have told that people sometimes spit on them.

My dad said he was in Berlin [visiting for a few weeks] in the 70s one place refused to serve him because they assumed he was Turkish. He though the local treatment of immigrants was rather bad then.

[improb]

Originally Posted by NOLA101

Well, yes, but, again, that's higher income than most European nations. If Hispanic America were a country it would be wealthy, at the same general level as Germany, France, Netherlands, UK, etc. and wealthier than Italy, Spain, etc.

And keep in mind that Hispanic households in the U.S. are significantly younger than White, Black, and Asian households. Household income/wealth rises with age in the U.S., so much of the income difference is probably attributable to age difference.

As i said this comparison is made hard by:

Difference in calculation methods
1) Being Hispanic is based on one's self-identification. Hispanic may be first generation immigrants just as much as they could be descendants of families who have been in the USA for several generations
2) On the other hand, ISTAT takes into account as non-Italians only those who don't have the citizenship (which can be acquired even after 5 or 10 years of residence in the country depending on the country you come from).

Different economic policies
1) In Italy, life is made easier for the lower classes (where a higher percentage of first generation immigrants rather than natives would be fitting) by welfare state (although you'd still be struggling as it's nowhere near the efficency of the Swedish, Norwegian, German or Dutch system)
2) In the USA, you are left to yourself in most circumstances and are likely to have to spend even on basic needs such as housing (which could be provided by the State here although not always), healthcare, ecc.

Aside from that, the comparison must be made relatively to the national average as neither ISTAT nor its American equivalent seem to offer an in depth breakdown by Purchasing Power Parity. And Hispanic gain 80% of the average income while the different (mostly first generation) immigrant groups on this side of the pond gain from 41,5% to 65%. Now it would be interesting to see which percentage of those who identify as Hispanics is first generation and which would be the average income of first generation Hispanic immigrants

Originally Posted by Krokodill

41.000 is pretty high considering that most Hispanics arrived recently.
Hispanic is not a validad reference in the US as Muslim is not a valida reference.
Hispanic in the US means Mexicans and Central Americans, more than 80 percent, poor Mexicans that arrived recently.
In some cases, second generation Hispanics have a higher median income, such as the case of Cubans, Peruvians and South Americans in general.
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22,480

I fully know that neither Hispanic nor Muslim are valid references. In fact, ISTAT doesn't even breakdown stats by religion, skin colour, ecc. but by country, things are different for its USA counterpart and so i'm forced to use the stats that go under the term "Hispanics".

As for second generation immigrants, it is something i'm trying not to take into account as a comparison is pretty much impossible but also due to Italy having received its first migratory waves only in the 90s and for considering second generation immigrants as Italians already due to them being born here. It's logical, though, that in most cases the second generation would be more integrated and wealthier than the first one.

[Frihed89]

There are 3 ways to get into the US and EU countries:

1. As a refugee from a camp outside of Europe or by entering a country and requesting asylum. The US screens its refugees before they enter and requires that they have a sponsor, while EU countries work on a quota system. Granting of asylum takes a long time and European countries, while in the US, only days to get an immigration hearing and many get rejected quickly.
2. On a job-related type visa, for a specified amount of time, but this can lead to a permanent visa under the right conditions in both the US and European countries.
3. Family re-unification (including some marriage options), leading to a permanent visa once the requirements have been met.

[Camlon]

The main difference is the immigration system. Obviously the people who smuggle themselves across the border is not going to be as educated or hard working as people who immigrate through the skilled visa system or through marriage.

The second big difference is the labour market and welfare, it is much easier for immigrants to find work in the US compared to Europe, and the incentive to look for work is much higher in the US. Europe has higher unemployment, fewer low skilled jobs, lots of trade regulations and strict language requirements. In the best case an asylum seeker will use 2 years to learn the language, and 3 years to get a new college degree. Then they need to overcome the tough labour market and the workplace discrimination against muslims. (Muslims have a reputation of making insane demands, and filing lawsuits). But most muslims in Europe are far from best case, so a lot of them never find work.

[svenM]

Originally Posted by philopower

From what I understand, Muslims in Europe are very poor and do not assimilate quite well. In contrast, Muslims in America are among the most successful people in the country. I think on average they are more wealthy than the average white person. Why is this?

You choose whom you let in your country and you allow only the "best" to enter, Europe does rather the opposite. A second point, you have no social welfare in the US - so people who come to the US really want to work, most European countries have generous social welfare, so people who are either not willing or able to fund themselves rather go to countries like Sweden or Germany (as the US would not allow them to immigrate anyway).

[J.Thomas]

Are these recent threads jokes??

There is no integration in the US!!

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by Ariete

You don't have to worry about that. Most of us behave well and are used to people of all skin colour. I would still dare to say that on average Northern Europe is less racist and discriminating than Eastern and Southern Europe. And certainly better travelled and educated. We don't think that anyone who is not blonde and blue-eyed is an evil Muslim.

That's not saying much. I would expect more from Northern Europe. Eastern Europe has been very isolated for a long time, and never had a chance to develop any cosmopolitanism. If you think Northern Europe is relatively isolated, that's nothing compared to being behind an Iron Curtain.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by J.Thomas

Are these recent threads jokes??

There is no integration in the US!!

Yes, there is. Compared to Europe in the last 10-20 years, it's very clear. We're talking integration, as opposed to complete assimilation. Those are two different things.