Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Unlike other Eastern European countries which overthrew Socialism by revolutions, Russians still have to overthrow their Govt. And palace intrigue of Gorbachev and Yeltsin does not count as overthrow.
Why? Yeltsin made the classic coup. With tanks, demonstrations and attacks TV stations.
Russia was Soviet (Gorbachev), Russia was post-Soviet/anti-Soviet (Yeltsin) and now Russia is modern (Putin). Russians will not to overthrow their Govt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10
We're waiting...
I think that Russians can to decide themselves what they should do.
Why? Yeltsin made the classic coup. With tanks, demonstrations and attacks TV stations.
Yeltsin was President at the time and wanted to dissolve the Parliament. Parliament impeached Yeltsin, yet Yeltsin used the Army to arrest his opposition.
You can't compare this to revolutions. Revolution means when people who are NOT in power, seize the power, usually by force.
Frankly he has a point. 100 years is a lot...OK 99 to be exact.
Though of course guys like Henry want an "Ukrainian style" revolution where the new government will be pro-Western. It will be fun though if the new government is even more anti-Western than the current one led by Putin.
Unlike other Eastern European countries which overthrew Socialism by revolutions, Russians still have to overthrow their Govt. And palace intrigue of Gorbachev and Yeltsin does not count as overthrow.
We're waiting...
Waiting for what?
See, unlike the Eastern European countries, that can be bought and sold by different masters, Russia is not interested in that. ( To be more precise - very small number of Russians, mostly so-called "liberals" are interested in such arrangements.) And that's why no more "overthrowings" of any kind - Russians are well-aware by now what they can lead to.
I will tell for you what. For democracy, for liberty, for a country when not just a few oligarchs rule, but people are free to pursue their dreams without fear of retribution, extortion or exile.
Most people vegetate in such autocratic regimes, such as Russia's, but those who dare to rise thru the ranks, challenge or criticize the leader should not be in fear of having their car blown off with wife and children inside.
Having a McDonald or Hollywood movies, or discos does not make a country modern. That's just superficial.
Most people could care less what Russians do inside Russia. But Russians should care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
See, unlike the Eastern European countries, that can be bought and sold by different masters, Russia is not interested in that. ( To be more precise - very small number of Russians, mostly so-called "liberals" are interested in such arrangements.) And that's why no more "overthrowings" of any kind - Russians are well-aware by now what they can lead to.
I doubt that Poles, Romanians, Estonians, Hungarians, Chechs, Slovaks, Lithuanians are bought and sold by anybody. Surely, they make alliances to insure their survival, especially in light of loose canons like Putin.
I will tell for you what. For democracy, for liberty, for a country when not just a few oligarchs rule, but people are free to pursue their dreams without fear of retribution, extortion or exile.
And how do you think the oligarchy was created in Russia at the first place?
"Democracy and liberty" are empty words when it comes to profits to be made by international bankers ( with their head quarters in New-York and London) in such rich in natural resources country like Russia)))
Quote:
Most people vegetate in such autocratic regimes, such as Russia's, but those who dare to rise thru the ranks, challenge or criticize the leader should not be in fear of having their car blown off with wife and children inside.
Having a McDonald or Hollywood movies, or discos does not make a country modern. That's just superficial.
Most people could care less what Russians do inside Russia. But Russians should care.
See, but Russian oligarchy ( born with the help of the US gov) turned out to have the teeth of their own))) And healthy appetites too. ( Or do you think only American bankers should have the appetites? ) And that's why Russians don't want to touch THEIR sharks - because they know that foreign sharks are swimming around - they saw their teeth ( and appetites) in the nineties)))
So yes, Russians DO care, and that's why they don't touch their very "undemocratic government," knowing that it's going to cause a havoc to those who helped to create it at the first place)))
Quote:
I doubt that Poles, Romanians, Estonians, Hungarians, Chechs, Slovaks, Lithuanians are bought and sold by anybody. Surely, they make alliances to insure their survival, especially in light of loose canons like Putin.
You "doubt?"
What grade are you in?
Do you know how to read? Or how to google?
If you do, then start with googling the "Visegrad group."
See how conspicuously Bulgaria and Romania are absent from this named above "group"?
That's what Germans/Austrians pointed at, as their preference - what countries/economies they wanted to purchase back... err... sorry - to *invest in."
And purchased they did.
"But one crucial source of German economic vitality that often remains overlooked is the networks that Germany has developed with the economies of East - Central Europe over the past several decades. Through geography, and through an active investment policy pursued by the state and by private business, Germany has forged a unique relationship with the economies of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia. Known as the Visegrad Group since 1991, these countries are home to relatively skilled and relatively cheap labor. On the one hand, German firms have taken advantage of this by relocating crucial stages of their manufacturing and commodity production chains eastwards. In doing so, they save labor costs and compete more effectively on the global market. One can draw a parallel here with American - owned factories in northern Mexico — the Maquiladoro industrial centers. Indeed, throughout the 20th and early 21st centuries many of the world’s leading economies have benefited from geographic proximity to a supply of low -cost labor. Germany is no exception. 6 On the other hand, the Visegrad Group economies have become so dependent on intra-industry trade with Germany that they now have a vested interest in preserving this relationship, and consequently of maintaining stability in the euro zone."
See? Here is your secret of "successful transition to liberty-democracy" or whatever regurgitated cliches you'd like to use here. These "Visegrad group's" four countries have been purchased by German capital, like Mexican cheap labor, mkay? So much for so-called "alliances"))))
( And by the way when these three ( or four) were purchased, "loose cannon Putin" was not even in the picture. )
Now Estonia has been purchased by Finland and other Scandies may be, which are either not interested in purchasing Latvia and Lithuania, or don't have funds for it. So those two are going for other highest bidders, (which are apparently not too many.) Not to mention the *Bulgaro-Romanians,* that are looked down on, and treated in EU with disdain.
I hope you've learned the lesson number one, so I can proceed a bit further.
For all the huffing and puffing of "Visegrad four" and bragging about their *success,* the major scores still to settle as it has always been in history, are between Germany and Russia. And that's what Americans are watching closely ( nervously at that), since they are aware of it. All these "Vicegrad groups" are small fish to fry - everyone knows it.
And how do you think the oligarchy was created in Russia at the first place?
"Democracy and liberty" are empty words when it comes to profits to be made by international bankers ( with their head quarters in New-York and London) in such rich in natural resources country like Russia)))
See, but Russian oligarchy ( born with the help of the US gov) turned out to have the teeth of their own))) And healthy appetites too. ( Or do you think only American bankers should have the appetites? ) And that's why Russians don't want to touch THEIR sharks - because they know that foreign sharks are swimming around - they saw their teeth ( and appetites) in the nineties)))
So yes, Russians DO care, and that's why they don't touch their very "undemocratic government," knowing that it's going to cause a havoc to those who helped to create it at the first place)))
You "doubt?"
What grade are you in?
Do you know how to read? Or how to google?
If you do, then start with googling the "Visegrad group."
See how conspicuously Bulgaria and Romania are absent from this named above "group"?
That's what Germans/Austrians pointed at, as their preference - what countries/economies they wanted to purchase back... err... sorry - to *invest in."
And purchased they did.
"But one crucial source of German economic vitality that often remains overlooked is the networks that Germany has developed with the economies of East - Central Europe over the past several decades. Through geography, and through an active investment policy pursued by the state and by private business, Germany has forged a unique relationship with the economies of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia. Known as the Visegrad Group since 1991, these countries are home to relatively skilled and relatively cheap labor. On the one hand, German firms have taken advantage of this by relocating crucial stages of their manufacturing and commodity production chains eastwards. In doing so, they save labor costs and compete more effectively on the global market. One can draw a parallel here with American - owned factories in northern Mexico — the Maquiladoro industrial centers. Indeed, throughout the 20th and early 21st centuries many of the world’s leading economies have benefited from geographic proximity to a supply of low -cost labor. Germany is no exception. 6 On the other hand, the Visegrad Group economies have become so dependent on intra-industry trade with Germany that they now have a vested interest in preserving this relationship, and consequently of maintaining stability in the euro zone."
See? Here is your secret of "successful transition to liberty-democracy" or whatever regurgitated cliches you'd like to use here. These "Visegrad group's" four countries have been purchased by German capital, like Mexican cheap labor, mkay? So much for so-called "alliances"))))
( And by the way when these three ( or four) were purchased, "loose cannon Putin" was not even in the picture. )
Now Estonia has been purchased by Finland and other Scandies may be, which are either not interested in purchasing Latvia and Lithuania, or don't have funds for it. So those two are going for other highest bidders, (which are apparently not too many.) Not to mention the *Bulgaro-Romanians,* that are looked down on, and treated in EU with disdain.
I hope you've learned the lesson number one, so I can proceed a bit further.
For all the huffing and puffing of "Visegrad four" and bragging about their *success,* the major scores still to settle as it has always been in history, are between Germany and Russia. And that's what Americans are watching closely ( nervously at that), since they are aware of it. All these "Vicegrad groups" are small fish to fry - everyone knows it.
Many young people lost their lives as heroes in EE, crushed under Soviet tanks for "regurgitated cliches" like Liberty and Democracy.
Liberty and democracy -- unless you have lived in a democratic civil society -- one would have no clue what that means or how that actually works in real life. These may be "regurgitated cliches" to you, but they were powerful ideals for the students and other revolutionaries of Eastern Europe who overthrew Soviet-like regimes. What have you accomplished?
Secondly your comments on Visegrad Group and Germany seems to come out of Lenin's own Imperialism teachings. The same-old tired arguments of exploitation and vassality.
According to this nonsense, Germany has also bought the US because it has built Mercedes plants in Alabama, and thus exploits the cheap American labor.
Or how about US - China? US companies have built a lot of factories in China. Does US own China? According to you is has to; US is the Imperialist-in-chief.
We are in 2016 and the global economies are connected by a million links. Yes, development is unequal, Russia and Leninism has played a big role in delaying progress.
Your representation of reality is of a feudalistic, unenlightened mindset. Regardless of shiny discos in Moscow, Russia has yet to emancipate as a modern and democratic society.
Many young people lost their lives as heroes in EE, crushed under Soviet tanks for "regurgitated cliches" like Liberty and Democracy.
So? People have tendency to idealize things - it happens. ( Not that there is no difference between, say, capitalism and socialism Soviet style, but idealization of either one is a totally different thing.)
Quote:
Liberty and democracy -- unless you have lived in a democratic civil society -- one would have no clue what that means or how that actually works in real life. These may be "regurgitated cliches" to you, but they were powerful ideals for the students and other revolutionaries of Eastern Europe who overthrew Soviet-like regimes.
As I've said "powerful ideas" and "regurgitated cliches" are not self-excluding things.
So I lived in a "democratic civil society" long enough to understand that it operates on money basis, and the more things are progressing, the more obvious it becomes that money rule above anything else. I mean it becomes quite obvious in the US, in Europe it's less obvious, precisely because Europeans adhere to many Socialist principals, and thus live a life of a more "democratic and civil society."
Quote:
What have you accomplished?
You mean Russians? I'd say they've accomplished a lot.
Experienced the price of lies on their own backs, rebounded, turned around and now became a powerful obstacle on American path of spreading those lies and taking over the world.
Quote:
Secondly your comments on Visegrad Group and Germany seems to come out of Lenin's own Imperialism teachings. The same-old tired arguments of exploitation and vassality.
Care to point at what Lenin's works exactly? Can you quote them please? Because I am not familiar with his works, really.
Quote:
According to this nonsense, Germany has also bought the US because it has built Mercedes plants in Alabama, and thus exploits the cheap American labor.
No, that's the "joint ventures" of two wealthy owners, the "equals" so to speak, that make deals on transnational corporate level. Not the kind of "deals" between Germany and "Visegrad group."
So how does it feel to be the Mexicans of Europe?
P.S. Now when I think about it, the labor in the US becomes cheap too - it has to compete with Chinese labor. And with the current attacks on American Labor Unions - phew))) It's not getting any better.
Quote:
Or how about US - China? US companies have built a lot of factories in China. Does US own China?
Well so they thought and hoped, but things turned unexpectedly differently. Who would have guessed?))))
Quote:
According to you is has to; US is the Imperialist-in-chief.
It is, since it's still the country that owes the world's banking system and prints the dollars.
Quote:
We are in 2016 and the global economies are connected by a million links. Yes, development is unequal, Russia and Leninism has played a big role in delaying progress.
No only it will "delay the progress" of corporate takeover of the world, Russians will actually shake the world and bring it to the brink of the WWIII. Russians never fail to do their job)))
Quote:
Your representation of reality is of a feudalistic, unenlightened mindset.
Better "unenlightened," but realistic, lol.
Quote:
Regardless of shiny discos in Moscow, Russia has yet to emancipate as a modern and democratic society.
I will tell for you what. For democracy, for liberty, for a country when not just a few oligarchs rule, but people are free to pursue their dreams without fear of retribution, extortion or exile.
Are taking about the USA?
Russia of these days does not have any of those issues. There are oligarchs, but they are everywhere - this world is ruled by big money, US or Russia does not matter, and democracy is just a show to keep working class working.
Every American president which wanted to change oligarch rule was killed or shot, so modern American presidents do not attempt anything serious, they are scared, they just join the party and become oligarch themselves. US is far more corrupted and dangerous these days than any other country in the world, and gap between the richest and the poorest is also the largest in the world.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'll be darned. 
