Reality check: You will never get big (not even semi-big) without drugs

[ogre]

Originally Posted by JonathanLB

Is your definition of buff the Hulk or something? That's what I'm not getting. Because I'm very buff and I'm all natural, but I don't look like the Hulk and there are way bigger all natural guys out there than me! Way bigger. So I don't get what you're talking about unless you mean like Hulk Huge.

And most guys don't just care about looks - I'm all about strength and looks are a nice side effect of that strength. I care about my max bench and overall functional strength especially as it relates to my health.

He's not talking about the Hulk. Back on page 3 in post 22 he responded to my question about what he considered big with this:

Originally Posted by hakkarin

Assuming you are an adult male of reasonable size (slightly tall but not very tall), I would argue that a weight of about 80-85kg is the maximum reasonable weight. Anything beyond that, and the person would just start getting fat instead of building more muscle. This number can be higher however if the person is very tall.

80-85 kg is 176-187 lb, which is solidly built but certainly not huge. The OP seems to be insisting that anyone who's not very, very tall can't get bigger than that without juicing.

I know from experience that the OP is underestimating what is possible. In my best shape in my mid twenties, at a time when I was running five to six miles a day to get into shape for a backpacking trip, at a height of 6'0" (which would fit the tall but not really tall height the OP says he's talking about with that 176-187 range), I weighed 190 just about on the dot, with the same pants size I'd had at a weight of 160 after I was fully grown but had not started lifting regularly.

190 is only three pounds over the max. the OP claims is possible, but it's still over. And I'm not Hulk huge, or even close to it.

According to websites with charts estimating frame size based on joint measurements, my measurements (7-1/4 inch right wrist girth, 6-7/8 left wrist, 10 inch right ankle girth, 9-1/2 inch left ankle, 3-1/2 inch elbow width on each elbow) put me on the boundary between the medium and large frame size ranges. Guys with very large frames should be able to gain significantly more muscle than the gains that put me at a slim 190 lb.

Now, I don't disagree with the assertion that steroids make a substantial difference in potential gains. Of course they do. Even the biggest guys who stay natural won't gain as much muscle as the most massive guys who are on the junk. I just think the OP significantly underestimates what it's possible to achieve naturally. Maybe not for everyone, but for most guys whose basic size is even somewhat on the large side.

[JonathanLB]

Yeah I have pretty small wrists, unfortunately, I measured them at 7". In all honesty I was surprised they're not smaller, like 6.5", because to me they look small. I really wish I could change that, but since I can't, all I can do is work with what I got.

I agree that if you're talking about pure weight, sure, most of the charts say that at my height, 5'10", I am not ever going to weigh more than 175 pounds and be lean at the same time. I just checked some chart that said that's about it, but I've also seen charts that say I could weigh as much as 185 lean, which in my mind is a pretty huge difference, frankly. In my personal training experience, I have never been above 172 or 173 pounds and been at 10% body fat or below. Any time I exceed that, it's because I am fatter than I want to be lol.

That being said, I think most guys who lift naturally, most of the guys I know, look big and built unless we're comparing them to the standards set by cover models on some of the muscle magazines. There are tons of guys out there you see on reality TV shows, on the beaches while on vacation, in the gym, none of whom have ever seen a steroid and all of whom look very ripped and built.

I just did my first 250 pound bench press today. It may not be impressive to the biggest dudes, like on a lifting forum they'll be talking about 300, 350 pound bench presses, but to me 250 feels really solid. If my body is willing -- at my no-longer-a-spring-chicken age of 33 (and 34 this year) -- one day, maybe next summer, I will be able to do 300 pounds. That would be my lifetime bench press goal. I can't say I'll be disappointed or bummed if I don't achieve it, as frankly it's just a number and I have way bigger goals than pushing some bar off my chest with an arbitrary number on it, but I also can't lie and say it wouldn't be really cool. That, I think, is the beginning of a claim that you are relatively speaking in the absolute top of humanity in strength. Sure, guys have benched 700 pounds natural (supposedly), and sure, thousands of guys can bench 300 pounds, but I would bet that fewer than 1 in 10,000 people worldwide will ever bench that much weight. That would be 700,000 people worldwide who can do that, which I don't find very likely at all.

[Haksel257]

You can gain more weight than you think with a few tricks. Most people don't utilize these to their full potential, and a lot don't even get close.

Get enough sleep to maximize testosterone, growth hormone, and repair.
Lose body fat to minimize testosterone-to-estrogen conversion and leptin, and maximize ghrelin/dopamine.
Do occlusion training (somewhat dangerous), maximizing local hormonal cascades around the muscle.
Optimize mindset and sexual activity to maximize testosterone production. Goes extra well with low body fat.
Lower cortisol to maximize testosterone and minimize estrogen. Most people fudge this one badly. Kind of the same as above.
The holy grail would be to minimize myostatin, but we don't know much about that one, short of genetic engineering. Occlusion training is probably the closest you can get to this.
Maximizing lactate production (hormonal cascade) through HIT, occlusion training, and breath-hold training (dangerous). 20-rep squat program comes to mind.
Maximizing mTOR rebound, but eating a cyclic protein diet. Low/no protein, followed by moderate protein.

I'm 22, and I've gained ~35 lbs and lost a fair amount of body fat, without gaining an inch in height, since I was 16. I have a fairly high androgen profile, and a moderate estrogen profile.

[hakkarin]

Originally Posted by Haksel257

Get enough sleep to maximize testosterone, growth hormone, and repair.
Lose body fat to minimize testosterone-to-estrogen conversion and leptin, and maximize ghrelin/dopamine.
Do occlusion training (somewhat dangerous), maximizing local hormonal cascades around the muscle.
Optimize mindset and sexual activity to maximize testosterone production. Goes extra well with low body fat.
Lower cortisol to maximize testosterone and minimize estrogen. Most people fudge this one badly. Kind of the same as above.
The holy grail would be to minimize myostatin, but we don't know much about that one, short of genetic engineering. Occlusion training is probably the closest you can get to this.
Maximizing lactate production (hormonal cascade) through HIT, occlusion training, and breath-hold training (dangerous). 20-rep squat program comes to mind.
Maximizing mTOR rebound, but eating a cyclic protein diet. Low/no protein, followed by moderate protein.

I think you are overthinking this.