Just wondering about obesity (muscle, fast, vs, meat)

[dazzleman]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

I disagree somewhat with the previous two posts.

I do not think you can boil it down to too many carbs. Calories that you do not burn are stored as fat. Macronutrient balance is important, but it is not the determining factor in weight gain/loss. Calorie imbalance is. Eat less than you use, weight loss results. Eat more than you use, weight gain results.

I also do not think that genetics are the main factor. Sure, some people are more "prone" to obesity than others, but those genes are not "expressed" unless a calorie imbalance of more input than output exists. People with thin parents do sometimes end up fat, and diet/activity is usually the reason.

In my case, it really was as simple as counting calories, ensuring a balanced diet (that did not seek to reduce carbs in proportion to protein and fat), and exercising both for improved health/fitness/metabolic rate and calorie "wasting". I used to be obese, and now I am not. I never eliminated carbs from my diet. I did not even reduce them. If anything, I increased them since my former diet had too much fat and protein (meat) in it. I also still drink diet soda, so obviously that cannot cause obesity on its own. In my case my consumption of diet soda did not change while my weight changed drastically, so in my case it has no effect on my weight whatsoever.

What you say is very interesting. Our diet fads swing back and forth. I remember 20 years ago, the mantra was to not have any fat, and make your whole diet pasta and bread. Now they're telling us that it doesn't matter how much fat we have, as long as we cut carbs.

The real answer is balance and the right number of calories, plus the right amount of exercise. There's no magic formula, as you've said.

Fat people have fat kids at least partly because they teach them bad eating and exercise habits. I've seen that with friends of mine who are heavy, and pass bad eating habits (and unhealthy attitudes toward food) onto their kids, so their kids become fat also. I realize there's a genetic component, but I think it's been seriously overstated by those who don't want to take responsibility for their own choices and decisions. 50 years ago, we were a much thinner society. I don't believe our genetic makeup has changed so much in that time.

[McBain II]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

Nobody is suggesting starvation. There is a difference between a caloric deficit (necessary for weight loss) and starvation (bad).

The idea that a calorie deficit is necessary for weight loss is a fallacy. Personally, I think it's the less effective ways to lose weight.

The issues I have with low-carb diets is that they are trendy and I have personally never seen anyone succeed in the medium or long term using them because they are usually too restrictive.

Then you haven't been looking.

I also disagree that cutting carbs is necessary for weight loss and my own personal experience bears this out

Necessary is a strong word, but the low carb way is almost certainly the easiest, safest and best way to lose weight.

and I disagree that overconsumption of carbs relative to fats and proteins is to blame for this country's obesity epidemic. That is not the reason. It is overconsumption of calories, period.

You can disagree with it all you want, but you can't argue the correlation between the modern world's diet becoming more and more carb based and the rise in obesity, which isn't seen in more primitive cultures that aren't loaded up with carbs.

There are more than a few doctors out there who study this stuff and share my sentiments.

[Itz]

There are to many excuses for obesity in this country. Those are just it - excuses... A family that is obese will have obese childfren - not because of genes (although they do play a role) but because of their ATROCIOUS diet and lack of excercise.

Next time you go to the super market... pay attention to what people are buying.
you'll notice obese people tend to load up on sugary foods (cereals), soda pops, processed items such as microwave meals, the helper meals, etc... The people that are thin are loaded up with veggies (frozen, fresh, canned), meats, water, etc..

Also keep in mind that a value meal at a fast food resteraunt contains over 1000 calories... a woman should stay within the 1200-1500 calorie range per day (based on an average woman in the loose/maintain weight)..

Obesity is a combination of factors, ignorance (people don't understand food labels and what they actually need in their bodies), ignorance (they don't know how to actually cook), ignorance (belief that eating healthy is expensive - when its not and can actually be cheaper), laziness (gotta watch the newest reality show), laziness (ever notice that parking lot stalkers are for the vast majority obese.... the ones that follow you to your car so they can get your parking spot), laziness (take the stairs), a VERY FEW, VERY FEW causes of obesity can actually be blamed on the medical/genetic link.

Everyone is genetically pre-diposed to be obese...

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by Bosco55David

The idea that a calorie deficit is necessary for weight loss is a fallacy. Personally, I think it's the less effective ways to lose weight.

Then you haven't been looking.

Necessary is a strong word, but the low carb way is almost certainly the easiest, safest and best way to lose weight.

You can disagree with it all you want, but you can't argue the correlation between the modern world's diet becoming more and more carb based and the rise in obesity, which isn't seen in more primitive cultures that aren't loaded up with carbs.

There are more than a few doctors out there who study this stuff and share my sentiments.

Wow. Just...wow. So you are the expert? When is your book coming out? Do you have your own TV show? Going to start your own weight loss empire?

Obviously you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation. If a plane is flying overhead and I sneeze and the plane blows up, my sneeze correlated with the plane blowing up, but it did not cause it to blow up. You are basing your argument on a logical fallacy, i.e. if one event follows another, the first event caused the second event to happen.

FACT: most people get fat because they eat too much and rarely, if ever, exercise. People who become fat any other way are rare.

FACT: You must consume fewer calories than you burn through exercise and daily activities to lose fat, which is the whole point of weight loss. You are not trying to lose muscle, and lost water doesn't count because being dehydrated is unhealthy, and you will gain that water weight right back as soon as you hydrate. FAT LOSS is the goal. And you cannot do it without reducing your caloric intake.

My 120 pound weight loss through a non low-carb diet using a caloric deficit created by eating less and increasing my physical activity speaks for itself. But hey, what do I know? I only succeeded in doing something millions of Americans cannot seem to do.

As for low-carb being easy, that is BS. It is not an easy diet to follow for many people. It also gives you disgusting breath. Safest? Ridiculous. Prove it. Best? Utterly ridiculous. Studies have shown that statement to be patently false.

Eating nothing but carbs and getting very little protein and very little fat is unhealthy, but so is basing your diet on fat. Or protein. You need all three. Low-carb diets can deplete glycogen. You need glycogen or your muscles will waste. Losing weight through muscle wastage is not desirable. You have to have lean muscle mass to keep your basal metabolic rate at a healthy level. Also, since low-carb diets are also often low in fiber, you are putting yourself at an increased risk for certain types of cancer. So you may lose weight rapidly in the first few weeks, but this is mainly due to dehydration and muscle atrophy. If your muscles atrophy, your BMR drops, you have less energy, you may exercise less, and you will look like crap because you won't have decent muscle tone and are not losing the layer of flab that inspired you to lose weight in the first place.

Basically a lot of the low-carb advice out there, like what you are giving, is snake oil because you are saying it is the best (it isn't), safest (it isn't), and most effective way (it isn't) to lose weight. And I can't let that pass without saying something about it.

[McBain II]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

Wow. Just...wow. So you are the expert? When is your book coming out? Do you have your own TV show? Going to start your own weight loss empire?

Yeah, I happen to know a little bit about it. I've only been doing it for years now.

Obviously you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation. If a plane is flying overhead and I sneeze and the plane blows up, my sneeze correlated with the plane blowing up, but it did not cause it to blow up. You are basing your argument on a logical fallacy, i.e. if one event follows another, the first event caused the second event to happen.

Actually I understand it perfectly, hence why I used the word correlation and not cause.

FACT: most people get fat because they eat too much and rarely, if ever, exercise. People who become fat any other way are rare.

FACT: You must consume fewer calories than you burn through exercise and daily activities to lose fat, which is the whole point of weight loss. You are not trying to lose muscle, and lost water doesn't count because being dehydrated is unhealthy, and you will gain that water weight right back as soon as you hydrate. FAT LOSS is the goal. And you cannot do it without reducing your caloric intake.

Really? I lost 60+lbs on a low carb diet and never made any substantial changes to my calorie intake. Guess I should gain it all back and lose it the right way huh?

My 120 pound weight loss through a non low-carb diet using a caloric deficit created by eating less and increasing my physical activity speaks for itself. But hey, what do I know? I only succeeded in doing something millions of Americans cannot seem to do.

I'll damn near guarantee that you lost a significant amount of muscle as well. I gained muscle with a low carb diet while dropping fat at the same time. I've never been on ANY other diet that allowed me to accomplish that.

Being an athlete, that's pretty damn important for me.

Oh, and I lost that 60lbs in less than 4 months. How long did it take you to lose 120?

As for low-carb being easy, that is BS. It is not an easy diet to follow for many people.

If it's not easy then it's because they're not doing their homework and finding the tons of low carb recipes out there. The variation I'm on also allows me to have carbs on the weekends.

It also gives you disgusting breath.

Actually, that's ketosis, meaning your body is burning off fat for fuel. Increasing your fluid intake or taking some sugar free gum solves this problem instantly.

Safest? Ridiculous. Prove it.

The lipid profiles of myself and several others who have been on this diet speak for themselves.

Best? Utterly ridiculous. Studies have shown that statement to be patently false.

What studies?

As for this next paragraph, all I can say is it's pretty obvious you've never been on a low carb diet, or simply don't know what you're talking about.

Eating nothing but carbs and getting very little protein and very little fat is unhealthy, but so is basing your diet on fat. Or protein. You need all three.

Going back to those lipid profiles, they don't lie. The low carb propaganda machine has never been able to refute those facts.

Low-carb diets can deplete glycogen. You need glycogen or your muscles will waste. Losing weight through muscle wastage is not desirable. You have to have lean muscle mass to keep your basal metabolic rate at a healthy level.

All wrong.

The whole point of a low carb diet is to get your body burning fat for fuel, which means less and less glycogen is depleted. What glycogen is lost, is easily replaced by a short carb loading phase of 12-48 hours.

Also, since low-carb diets are also often low in fiber, you are putting yourself at an increased risk for certain types of cancer.

I don't know of ANY low carb diet that isn't very explicit in instructing you to watch your fiber intake. I take a fiber supplement since I don't eat that many vegetables.

So you may lose weight rapidly in the first few weeks, but this is mainly due to dehydration and muscle atrophy.

Actually, you shouldn't lose any significant weight in the first week or two. At that time your body is getting fat adapted.

Dehydration? Then you're not following the diet. Atrophy? Same thing.

If your muscles atrophy, your BMR drops, you have less energy, you may exercise less, and you will look like crap because you won't have decent muscle tone and are not losing the layer of flab that inspired you to lose weight in the first place.

None of these are an issue on a low carb diet. Hell, avoiding this is exactly the reason I went on this diet.

Basically a lot of the low-carb advice out there, like what you are giving, is snake oil because you are saying it is the best (it isn't), safest (it isn't), and most effective way (it isn't) to lose weight. And I can't let that pass without saying something about it.

You might want to be a little more educated on the matter before you try calling others out.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by Bosco55David

You might want to be a little more educated on the matter before you try calling others out.

Right back atcha.

Low-carb is trendy BS.

And I have excellent muscle tone, as not only did I do as much as I could to retain muscle mass while I was losing weight, I continue to incorporate strength training into my fitness regime. I do it at least 2x a week.

Oh and also...I know three doctors and one nutritionist, and they all agree with me. So...there you are. If I'm ignorant, so are they.

[McBain II]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

Right back atcha. Low-carb is trendy BS.

So being in use for over 5 decades is "trendy"?

Right.

And I have excellent muscle tone, as not only did I do as much as I could to retain muscle mass while I was losing weight, I continue to incorporate strength training into my fitness regime. I do it at least 2x a week.

You still didn't answer my question. How long did it take you to lose that weight, and how long has it been off?

Oh and also...I know three doctors and one nutritionist, and they all agree with me. So...there you are. If I'm ignorant, so are they.

Hell, if you want to play that game, they probably are.

I'll do you one better. The version of the diet I'm on was designed by Mauro Di Pasquale. Let's take a look at his qualifications.

I hold an honors degree in biological science, majoring in molecular biochemistry and genetics (1968), and a medical degree (1971) - both from the University of Toronto. I am certified as a Medical Review Officer (MRO) by the Medical Review Officer Certification Council (MROCC), and as a Master of Fitness Sciences (MFS) by the International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA). I am also a member of the American College of Sports Medicine.

I was an assistant professor at the University of Toronto for ten years (1988 to 1998) lecturing and researching on athletic performance, nutrition, nutritional supplements, and drug use in sports.

I was a world-class athlete for over twenty years, winning the world championships in Powerlifting in 1976, and the World Games in the sport of Powerlifting in 1981. I was Canadian champion eight times, Pan American champion twice, and North American champion twice. I was the first Canadian Powerlifter to become a World Champion and first Canadian Powerlifter to total 10 times bodyweight in any weight class and I'm the only Canadian to ever total ten times bodyweight in two weight classes.

Over the last four decades I have had extensive exposure to athletic injuries and disabilities, and ergogenic and nutritional supplement use by athletes. As well, I operated a Sports Medicine, Nutrition and Bariatric clinic for over three decades.

I have been chairman/member of several national and international powerlifting, bodybuilding and Olympic weight lifting sports federation medical committees. Over this period of time I have acted as a consultant, medical advisor, drug testing officer and technical expert on the pharmacology and pathophysiology of sports, nutritional supplement use and drug testing.

I was the Medical Director to the World Wrestling Federation (WWF) (now called World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE)) and World Bodybuilding Federation (WBF) and the acting MRO for the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR).

At present I am the President of the fledgling United World Powerlifting Federation (www.UWPF.com) and the Pan American (North, Central and South America, Bermuda, the Bahamas and the Caribbean Islands) Powerlifting Federation (www.PanAmPL.com).

I have written several books, many of which have been translated into various languages, dealing with diet, nutritional supplements and the use of ergogenic aids by athletes. Earlier books included Drug Use and Detection in Amateur Sports, Beyond Anabolic Steroids, and Anabolic Steroid Side Effects, Fact, Fiction and Treatment.

In the past three decades plus, I have been on several Editorial Boards for various fitness and strength magazines. I was the Editor-in-Chief of a peer reviewed, quarterly international newsletter titled Drugs in Sports, published by Decker. This newsletter was published in English, Spanish and Italian. I was also Editor-in-Chief of a bimonthly newsletter titled the Anabolic Research Review. Both newsletters contained information on drug testing and the use of drugs and nutritional supplements by athletes.

In 1995 I wrote two books. One of these books, the Bodybuilding Supplement Review is a review of nutritional supplements and the other, the Anabolic Diet, described an earlier version of my new Metabolic Diet. This diet was aimed at bodybuilders and strength athletes. Both books were written to provide information to athletes on how to increase muscle mass and strength and decrease body fat, and to offer an alternative to drug use.

In 1997 I wrote Amino Acids and Proteins for the Athlete - The Anabolic Edge published by CRC Press, it was released in October 1997. I have also written and am in the process of writing chapters for several books on nutrition, sports medicine, substance abuse, fitness and weight training. At present I'm working on several other books including a comprehensive nutritional supplement manual.

In the past thirty-five years I have written a few thousand articles on training, diet, nutritional supplements, and drug use in sports for many magazines and association journals. I've written for and had regular monthly columns in all the popular bodybuilding and fitness journals including Muscle and Fitness, Flex, Men's Fitness, Shape, Muscle Media, Muscle Mag International, IronMan, Powerlifting USA and many smaller publications.

From 1996 to 1999 I was involved in writing, research and product development for Experimental and Applied Sciences (EAS) and Muscle Media, and was a member of the EAS Scientific Advisory Panel.

I've contributed chapters on ergogenic aids, diet and nutritional supplements to dozens of fitness, weight and sports medicine books as well as books on anabolic steroids and substance abuse. For example I contributed the chapter on Anabolic Steroids in The Handbook of Substance Abuse, 1998 and edited by Tarter et al. The latest chapters on nutrition appears in Energy-Yielding Macronutrients and Energy Metabolism in Sports Nutrition and in Nutritional Applications in Exercise and Sport, both edited by Judy A. Driskell and Ira Wolinsky and published in 2000 and 2001 respectively by CRC Press.

My latest collaborative effort, written along with Tudor Bompa and Lorenzo Cornacchia, is the second edition of Serious Strength Training released by Human Kinetics in late 2002.

In the past three decades I have been on several Editorial Boards for various fitness and strength magazines and was the Editor-in-Chief of a two quarterly international newsletter on sports nutrition and ergogenic aids.

I hold seminars and lecture all over the world on diet, nutritional supplements and training. In the past I have lectured and held seminars in dozens of cities in North America, and all over the world. I also formulate engineered, cutting edge, scientifically validated nutritional supplements for various companies that are sold under their specific labels.

Most recently I formulated a new group of nutritional supplements meant to combat nighttime post absorptive catabolism and enhance the anabolic and recuperative effects of sleep. I’m now working on developing specific nutriceuticals along with some prominent researchers from the US and several other countries. Those in the US include doctors at Harvard Medical School and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

I act as an international consultant and expert witness for amateur and professional athletes and sports bodies, private corporations and companies, and government agencies on all aspects of training, nutrition and supplementation and on legal matters relating to nutritional supplements, and the use and abuse, and drug testing of anabolic steroids, growth hormone and other ergogenic drugs.

Hmmm. Applied this diet as both a doctor and an athlete (world champion powerlifter no less) for over 40 years now.

Anyways, you were saying?

[L.K.]

Really? I lost 60+lbs on a low carb diet


Being an athlete, that's pretty damn important for me.



being an "ATHLETE", how did you become 60 lbs overweight in the first place? I'm a 53 year old woman who has given birth to 3 kids and I weigh now what I weighed in high school-110 lbs. I have eaten a balanced, healthy diet my entire life and I have never not exercised.I too, don't believe there is some magic to it. I am thin because I do what nature intended:Eat only what my body needs,stop eating when I'm full and keep moving! My kids are thin not because my husband and I are thin,but because I didn't stuff them as babies and toddlers.A child develops all their fat cells by age three.So all those adorable chubby overweight kids WILL have trouble maintaining a normal weight.My kids have learned what healthy eating means.We don't keep alot of junk food in the house.Notice I didn't say we don't eat any.We just know when to stop.
This country is obsessed with the huge buffet and supersizing! NO ONE NEEDS THAT MUCH FOOD!!! I stopped at Burger King last night to treat my son to a meal after he spent 2 hour wrestling.We ordered a small soda.I was appauled at the size of the thing! Even he commented on how big it was! When you see the size of the cup they give you for extra large,it's shocking.It's enough soda for a year! It's all about the comfort and entitlement that we Americans feel we deserve.No one wants to deprieve themselves.People eat to excess and don't exercise becauce that's the easy, comfy way.

[McBain II]

Originally Posted by L.K.

being an "ATHLETE", how did you become 60 lbs overweight in the first place?

Easy. I had an injury back when I played football in high school and then got lazy when I didn't come back as fast as I should have.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by Bosco55David

So being in use for over 5 decades is "trendy"?

Right.

You still didn't answer my question. How long did it take you to lose that weight, and how long has it been off?

Hell, if you want to play that game, they probably are.

I'll do you one better. The version of the diet I'm on was designed by Mauro Di Pasquale. Let's take a look at his qualifications.



Hmmm. Applied this diet as both a doctor and an athlete (world champion powerlifter no less) for over 40 years now.

Anyways, you were saying?

One person vs proven facts that:

In order to lose weight, you must consume fewer calories than you burn.

Low-carb diets can be dangerous.

Low-carb diets are linked to muscle atrophy and kidney damage.

Low-carb diets are not the only way to lose weight. They are not the best way, and not even the safest way.

I say this not to get into a pissing contest, honestly I do not care what you think. However I do care when I see bad advice being given to people. That is all I have to say to you. Roll your eyes at me all you like.