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Old 01-13-2014, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,330 posts, read 30,600,229 times
Reputation: 26973

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rs4 fan View Post
But that is pandering to the whims of men. Since you don't like wearing makeup, you have a choice not to regardless of career advancement.

Sadly, for those who don't enjoy wearing makeup, that is pandering to the patriarchy. If that's what it takes for someone to take you seriously, why don't we men wear makeup? Your work ethic/intelligence should show your competency, not some chemicals on your face.
You don't live in reality. Unfortunately for women, appearance trumps qualifications. Why don't we talk about "natural" hair in corporate america shall we?

Let's pretend I decided to not relax my hair any more..
Natural Hair vs. Corporate America: Why Are We Still Fighting This Battle? - Style - EBONY
Natural Hair and Professionalism. An oxymoron? - Black Enterprise
Black Women Worry That Their Natural Hair Could Affect Job Employment Or Retention
Rareview: Going natural in corporate America – In America - CNN.com Blogs
Is Your 'Natural' Hairstyle Preventing You from Getting a Job? - Forbes

Notice all of these articles are in the past couple of year. Black women are not allowed to wear their natural hair without professional ramifications in corporate america. In corporate america, hairstyles are dictated by hair texture, and if your hair is the wrong kind of curly (like mine) you will likely find it harder to get a job. I know many people who purposely straighten their hair for interviews, to make it easier to be accepted.

In 2014, I still can't go into any job interview with my "natural" hair.

Women unfortunately are not taken seriously, unless they look "attractive." Men do not have this problem.
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:01 PM
 
4,671 posts, read 4,812,066 times
Reputation: 4176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amontillado View Post
I wonder about this too. It would be interesting to see a map or a listing of cities with the per-capita annual spending rate on cosmetics--I bet there would be some serious variations. It might explain why someone from X City might think a woman without makeup is just a step away from being naked, and over in Y City, they'd just shrug and say nobody needs cosmetics at all. I think in New England we tend to be on the don't-need-it side, but maybe that's just my immediate neighborhood.
Cities with large Hispanic populations would score high on the makeup index. Texas would rank high because most Latinas love makeup and so do Southern white women.
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:03 PM
 
4,671 posts, read 4,812,066 times
Reputation: 4176
I don't agree that women who wear makeup are insecure. I have observed just the opposite...that many make up wearing girls have sky high self-esteem.
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Queens, NY
842 posts, read 947,881 times
Reputation: 1012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
You don't live in reality. Unfortunately for women, appearance trumps qualifications. Why don't we talk about "natural" hair in corporate america shall we?

Let's pretend I decided to not relax my hair any more..
Natural Hair vs. Corporate America: Why Are We Still Fighting This Battle? - Style - EBONY
Natural Hair and Professionalism. An oxymoron? - Black Enterprise
Black Women Worry That Their Natural Hair Could Affect Job Employment Or Retention
Rareview: Going natural in corporate America – In America - CNN.com Blogs
Is Your 'Natural' Hairstyle Preventing You from Getting a Job? - Forbes

Notice all of these articles are in the past couple of year. Black women are not allowed to wear their natural hair without professional ramifications in corporate america. In corporate america, hairstyles are dictated by hair texture, and if your hair is the wrong kind of curly (like mine) you will likely find it harder to get a job. I know many people who purposely straighten their hair for interviews, to make it easier to be accepted.

In 2014, I still can't go into any job interview with my "natural" hair.

Women unfortunately are not taken seriously, unless they look "attractive." Men do not have this problem.
I'm very well in reality. I understand appearance matters in some employment cases. Doesn't change anything, though. For those complaining, they have a choice to not to apply for those professional jobs. I have dreads, and if I was told by an employer to cut them off, and I do, I'm pandering to their whims. I've submitted to them.

Also, men don't have that problem? I guess you're not living in reality:

Size Does Matter: Taller Men Earn More - Careers Articles

Why tall people make more money - CNN.com

Taller People Earn More Money | LiveScience

I could post many more where that came from. Taller men are taken seriously in the workforce FAR MORE than us shorties.
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,272 posts, read 1,052,421 times
Reputation: 1539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay F View Post
I don't agree that women who wear makeup are insecure. I have observed just the opposite...that many make up wearing girls have sky high self-esteem.

Ladies who are afraid to leave the house without makeup have low self-esteem. There are a lot of women like this, unfortunately. And ladies who wear makeup don't always have a post on their forehead saying
"it may not appear this way at all, but I have low self-esteem." Some do, some don't. Some may not know it themselves.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
24,573 posts, read 15,840,833 times
Reputation: 36236
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs4 fan View Post
Once again







If you actually tried to listen to what I was saying, I was making the point that women who pander to society's whims are less empowered than others. Nobody puts a gun to your head and says "Wear makeup or die." You have free will. Note that I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT WOMEN WHO ARE AGAINST MAKEUP AND THE SUPPOSED STANDARDS OF BEAUTY IMPOSED ON THEM. If one strongly believes against it, just don't do it.
I originally responded to another post that referred to women who wore makeup as being insecure. I did not read or remember the post you reference.

Here is my point: women who wear makeup are not necessarily pandering to society's whims. Because they have free will, they choose to wear or not wear. In fact how can you possibly know who is "pandering"==a loaded word in this context, for sure.

And, if women associate solely with others who are makeup free, and tend to copy their peers' mode of dressing, whose to say these women are not bowing to pressure? It cuts both ways. It might be that they are consciously choosing not to wear makeup, or it might be that they don't want to because their friends don't want to.

Almost all of us are influenced in some way by society's norms. Very few of us are so individualistic that our friends, the movies we watch, the TV we watch, the displays at the mall, do not influence us. Extremely individualistic people, who are never influenced by societal norms are probably hard to be around for any length of time. Most of us conform in at least some ways, to appearance norms.

If someone's religion prohibits makeup, then a women who complies with this restriction is conforming to the norms of her religion. If a woman decided to load on the makeup, I suppose she is conforming to some other norm.

In my observation, women who are totally against "supposed standards of beauty imposed on them" (why do you have to shout when you post?) have probably decided that for whatever reason, they do not want to be bound this way. I can think of several reasons for this, but it doesn't matter why, really. They have chosen their paths. And it isn't for me or you to judge. Their choices don't affect us one way or the other. It is simply none of my business, or yours.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Queens, NY
842 posts, read 947,881 times
Reputation: 1012
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
I originally responded to another post that referred to women who wore makeup as being insecure. I did not read or remember the post you reference.
Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. I've said SOME women wear makeup because of their insecurities. I didn't say ALL. I don't know how many times I've said this at this point. It seems you're choosing to ignore this. I even gave you the post to read, and you're admitting you didn't read it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
Here is my point: women who wear makeup are not necessarily pandering to society's whims. Because they have free will, they choose to wear or not wear. In fact how can you possibly know who is "pandering"==a loaded word in this context, for sure.
Again, if you tried to understand my point, you'd know that I was ONLY talking about women who hates the standards of beauty imposed on us. You know, the ones AGAINST wearing makeup. Generally, if you do something you don't like to appease others, that is the very definition of pandering. Let's look at it another way: I'd be pandering if I bought an expensive newer car over my really old Honda because people told me so. I chose the Honda for lower insurance, great gas mileage and no car payments. Had I went into debt buying a newer car, I've pandered to their whims. However, if I wanted the car because I liked it, I've only pandered to myself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
And, if women associate solely with others who are makeup free, and tend to copy their peers' mode of dressing, whose to say these women are not bowing to pressure? It cuts both ways. It might be that they are consciously choosing not to wear makeup, or it might be that they don't want to because their friends don't want to.
How many times do I have to say that I know that women have their choices? Understand that pandering to anyone's whims, is that, regardless of situation. It's the same exact thing if a woman likes makeup, but bows to the pressure of friends who tells her not to wear it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
Almost all of us are influenced in some way by society's norms. Very few of us are so individualistic that our friends, the movies we watch, the TV we watch, the displays at the mall, do not influence us. Extremely individualistic people, who are never influenced by societal norms are probably hard to be around for any length of time. Most of us conform in at least some ways, to appearance norms.
Yeah, but when people complain about those norms, understand that you have the choice to not follow it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
If someone's religion prohibits makeup, then a women who complies with this restriction is conforming to the norms of her religion.
Exactly. It's still pandering. She has the choice to practice another, or no, religion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
In my observation, women who are totally against "supposed standards of beauty imposed on them" (why do you have to shout when you post?) have probably decided that for whatever reason, they do not want to be bound this way.
And those who don't want to be bound that way aren't pandering to society. THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT THE WHOLE TIME. A woman who loves dressing up and wearing makeup AREN'T pandering to society's standard of beauty; a woman who hates it but feels "pressured" is. Do you even understand what I'm trying to say?

Furthermore, I should stop shouting, but it's really aggravating when people put words in your mouth to try to negate your point, especially when they show that they're not even reading your posts to begin with. How can you argue with someone and you don't even know what they said?



Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
I can think of several reasons for this, but it doesn't matter why, really. They have chosen their paths. And it isn't for me or you to judge. Their choices don't affect us one way or the other. It is simply none of my business, or yours.
I've noticed that when someone doesn't like your opinion, this is a usual response around here. By this logic, there's no reason for the forums to exist. We all have opinions. We all judge. You're judging me for being judgmental. You've even judged individualistic people above by stating, "Extremely individualistic people, who are never influenced by societal norms are probably hard to be around for any length of time."

Like I've stated a few times, WOMEN in the Relationships thread were judging Candace Cameron for "submitting" to her husband, yet, many of them submit to society's beauty standards on a regular basis. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy. Funny how no one mentioned that, though.

I suggest you read post #100 (even though I doubt you will) and see why I began talking about that in the first place. I was responding to a couple of women in the thread. The conversation just went this far.

Last edited by rs4 fan; 01-14-2014 at 12:36 AM..
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:07 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
27,330 posts, read 30,600,229 times
Reputation: 26973
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs4 fan View Post
I'm very well in reality. I understand appearance matters in some employment cases. Doesn't change anything, though. For those complaining, they have a choice to not to apply for those professional jobs. I have dreads, and if I was told by an employer to cut them off, and I do, I'm pandering to their whims. I've submitted to them.
What the heck? Just don't take well paying professional jobs so you can have a huger quality of life? SMH!

Guess what, ugly women are screwed more than short guys. Women already get 20% less than men, so the ugly woman penalty is about 35%. <b>The height of success</b> | Mail Online
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Queens, NY
842 posts, read 947,881 times
Reputation: 1012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
What the heck? Just don't take well paying professional jobs so you can have a huger quality of life? SMH!

Guess what, ugly women are screwed more than short guys. Women already get 20% less than men, so the ugly woman penalty is about 35%. <b>The height of success</b> | Mail Online

Didn't mean it that way. I've stated ad nauseum that women have a choice. I was saying that women who don't like it should do something else. If not they "submitted" because they pandered to the status quo.

When I mentioned Candace Cameron "submitting" to her husband and the many negative responses on here/the provided link, I was pointing out the sometimes hypocrisy of women's empowerment. They were calling her a "doormat" and "stupid" for taking it. Some called her husband an "abuser". Now a common complaint in the Western world is that women are subjected to unrealistic beauty standards. I actually agree. For the women who are content with it, fine. They aren't "submitting" to anything. However, if you're one to complain about it, but follow through with it anyway, you've submitted. You've pandered to society. The same goes for makeup: if you don't like it, you don't HAVE to wear it. If you do for somebody else, whether it's work, a man or something for reasons other than you wanting to, you've submitted. It's that simple. This the point I've been trying to make in this thread (in which some are obviously choosing to ignore).

I'd argue why the 2nd part doesn't make too much sense, but that would throw this way more off topic than it already is.
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:52 AM
 
15,611 posts, read 32,122,878 times
Reputation: 19461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay F View Post
Cities with large Hispanic populations would score high on the makeup index. Texas would rank high because most Latinas love makeup and so do Southern white women.
I think this is true. I am Latina, and grew up in a city with a lot of Latino population. My observation is that Latin women (and to a large degree black women) like to look nice - we dress nice and wear makeup as part of that. We do NOT have "low self-esteem." We just like looking nice. This is part of our culture. I remember feeling extremely shocked when I moved out of that city into another city where this was not the case.

Bottom line, people can and should do whatever they want. Personally I will stick with looking nice, and when I see another woman dressed up a bit, I like to tell her so. I get my share of compliments also, and this makes me feel good. So, whatever floats your boat.
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