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Old 02-07-2014, 04:38 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
3,082 posts, read 2,495,168 times
Reputation: 1983

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It is logically consistent - restrict makeup, compensate in other ways. It would be illogical to expect women to accept being lower in attractiveness.

Corrective surgery isn't 100% natural, but because it's permanent and part of the body, it's much more natural than makeup and (if done right and without artificial devices or materials) natural in outcome. It's not tricking people in the sense of looking one way part of the time and a worse way the rest of it. In practical terms, post-surgery is much more straightforward (and, if the surgical outcome was good, easier) than using makeup.
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:43 PM
 
10,557 posts, read 6,201,974 times
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I like my makeup. The ingredients are natural and good for my skin. As good as any moisturizer. It also looks natural when on. I don't see the problem with it. Plastic surgery on the other hand.... Never!
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:45 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
81,210 posts, read 74,353,005 times
Reputation: 80992
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
To me, "natural" is natural-looking, minimal in artificial components, and basically permanent. (No, contacts aren't "natural," and I personally had vision correction surgery to get away from that.) I don't know how other men define "natural."
Contacts? Vision surgery? Are you aware that there are some very cool eyewear styles on the mkt today? If you feel like that's too geeky (you should check out the higher-end lines, if that's what you think), you can always get prescription dark glasses. No one will ever know you're wearing prescription.
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Old 02-07-2014, 05:04 PM
 
Location: So Cal
41,867 posts, read 41,316,979 times
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Sometimes I like women all tarted up and other times natural is good.

Doesn't have to be an either or thing.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:00 PM
 
Location: MN
1,305 posts, read 1,448,154 times
Reputation: 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Contacts? Vision surgery? Are you aware that there are some very cool eyewear styles on the mkt today? If you feel like that's too geeky (you should check out the higher-end lines, if that's what you think), you can always get prescription dark glasses. No one will ever know you're wearing prescription.
What's worse about his view isn't so much the plastic surgery, but the fact that a person's basic appearance should be "fixed." Like the blond in the link needs to "fix" her nose, as if there is something inherently wrong with her appearance.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:16 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
3,082 posts, read 2,495,168 times
Reputation: 1983
My turn for an eye-roll? The women who put on makeup like that in real life are trying to "fix" their looks.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:52 PM
 
Location: MN
1,305 posts, read 1,448,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
My turn for an eye-roll? The women who put on makeup like that in real life are trying to "fix" their looks.
Like what? Do ALL women wear makeup to look trashy? Do you think Tammy Faye Bakker and Lady Gaga set the example for how women ought to wear makeup, because I'm trying really hard to see how that's all playing out for the average woman. Oh yeah that's right, the typical woman doesn't wear makeup that way, nor does she do it to "fix" her looks. Makeup is made to enhance features and diminish flaws because we all know no one finds under eye circles attractive or lackluster lips.

The sensible thought around makeup isn't about "fixing" because makeup doesn't fix anymore than hair dye fixes graying hair. Time to get over it; women are going to wear makeup. If men are going to whine and complain about how women need to be more "natural," then they need to shut up and accept how people LOOK NATURALLY and get on with life.

Last edited by Vintage_girl; 02-08-2014 at 12:00 AM..
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:14 AM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
3,082 posts, read 2,495,168 times
Reputation: 1983
"To enhance features and diminish flaws" - that's close to splitting hairs, because much of that is how other people would judge those flaws. As in women not getting positive male attention. That is the main gripe of us men re makeup - being set up for later disappointment. Might as well truly fix things where possible (often nose and lips). It prevents unpleasant experiences and is liberating.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:20 AM
 
Location: MN
1,305 posts, read 1,448,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post

I think many women play into it because they rather be social accepted than rebel against it. Another example of this is on social media, some girls were tweeting pics of them with armpit hair. Most women are against the idea of not shaving but they reinforce the social expectation.

Back on topic, in the long run many women run into self esteem issues. When you get to your mid 30s or 40s and the makeup you put on don't seem to make a pro-founding difference than they start feeling depressed and cranky. When even the most gullible guy can tell you're putting on makeup to cover the the imperfections than it all goes downhill there.
To address your post OP, sorry to derail your topic. I agree with you here but it isn't about the makeup as a problem. It is about our society placing such high value on physical appearance to the point where people in general derive their self-worth from it. People have always used physical appearance to make judgments because we are after all, humans and it's part of our nature. But we have evolved into a society where wearing makeup in a certain way determines a woman's attractiveness, it determines how serious she is taken (as you cited with Hilary Clinton) and it even influences how people treat her at work.

There are women who do feel depressed without makeup but I would say those are deep-seated self-esteem issues rather than the issue with makeup. It's what we do with makeup and how we choose to interpret what people are like with or without it that can be problematic. I would have a problem with young girls and teenagers wearing a lot of makeup outside of a dance because they are still developing and don't need to be covering flaws. How can they have flaws when most of their faces haven't even filled in yet?

We as a society do have expectations for how people should look and some of it is justifiable. The expectation women aren't very good looking without makeup isn't justifiable, but the reality is a lot of people place high value on how women look with makeup so going without it is difficult. Once we accept how people look as they are, it'll be easier to convince women to wear less makeup. That means accepting women with short eyelashes, low cheekbones, under eye circles, larger noses, and thinner lips. None of those features need permanent "fixing." I see makeup as a practical accessory rather than one to attract others and can polish an overall look, just like wearing jewelry, hairstyles, clothing styles and colors. I can recognize when other women think they have a need for makeup, and most of them aren't caking it on. Pamela Anderson and Lindsay Lohan are rather extreme examples, so please don't allow a few women who wear heavy obvious makeup to influence how you view makeup in general.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:24 AM
 
Location: MN
1,305 posts, read 1,448,154 times
Reputation: 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
"To enhance features and diminish flaws" - that's close to splitting hairs, because much of that is how other people would judge those flaws. As in women not getting positive male attention. That is the main gripe of us men re makeup - being set up for later disappointment. Might as well truly fix things where possible (often nose and lips). It prevents unpleasant experiences and is liberating.
Yes we know, you like plastic. Get a nose job and bigger boobs to "fix the problems" so there won't be "disappointment." Oh, that sounds like it's such a liberating experience for those who truly want to be "natural."

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