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Old 03-17-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Ohio
13,933 posts, read 12,902,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimalRescue View Post
I was going to get my first starter tank soon and was thinking about a 70-100 gallon tank most likely freshwater with maybe some real plants. Whats the positives and negatives of having a real plant tank vs fake plants.

Also what would be a good combination of fish that can live together. Would angelfish be able to live with some gouramis, they are both semi aggresive i believe. Then adding in some guppies, tetras, glofish...any others?

Have you any experience with aquariums? With this be your first? If so I would HIGHLY recommend you start with a FAR smaller tank, such as maybe a 2.5 gal. up to possibly a 10 gal. Aquariums are A LOT of work, and one can grow tired of them very quickly after the initial shine wheres off. I started with a 10 gal. about 12 yrs. ago, I still have that 10 gal. and am looking to downgrade to about a 2.5 with a betta and maybey a fan-tail or two. The only problem is I have fish in my 10 gal. that a smaller tank would not be suitable for and I swear they would live through an apocalypse. You have to have a real passion to maintain a tank that big.

Ionly read the OP, so sorry if these concerns have already been adressed.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,495 posts, read 32,967,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Have you any experience with aquariums? With this be your first? If so I would HIGHLY recommend you start with a FAR smaller tank, such as maybe a 2.5 gal. up to possibly a 10 gal. Aquariums are A LOT of work, and one can grow tired of them very quickly after the initial shine wheres off. I started with a 10 gal. about 12 yrs. ago, I still have that 10 gal. and am looking to downgrade to about a 2.5 with a betta and maybey a fan-tail or two. The only problem is I have fish in my 10 gal. that a smaller tank would not be suitable for and I swear they would live through an apocalypse. You have to have a real passion to maintain a tank that big.

Ionly read the OP, so sorry if these concerns have already been adressed.
no offense but this is (and that is just my humble opinion) the worst advice you can give a fish hobbyist.

I have 2 yen gallon and 4 30 gallons just taking up space in my house because I got a ten gallon, then wanted more fish, then had to separate fish and so on.

I wish I had just gotten a 210 gallon tank and be done with it.

But even more importantly, a bigger tank is much ore forgiving, and with small fresh water fish, live plants and good filtration, you are looking at a lot less maintenance. I have found the opposite of your last assertion to be more true. You have to have real passion to maintain a ten gallon tank.
I have maintained my amazon tank for long stretches of time with only partial water changes every couple of months.

You are probably assuming that since the 10 gallon was such a bother then a 10 gallon would be ten times more of a bother. but no after I experienced a bigger tank, I cringe at the thought of going smaller and all those water changes, testing and all that stuff.

but like I said, its just my opinion, others may share yours.

oh, one more thing, I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than a 5 gallon for a betta and a 30 gallon for a fan tail. those little one inch fantail will turn into an 8 inch whopper in two years. plus they are messy eaters and a 2.5 gallon would mean weekly water changes
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,933 posts, read 12,902,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
no offense but this is (and that is just my humble opinion) the worst advice you can give a fish hobbyist.

I have 2 yen gallon and 4 30 gallons just taking up space in my house because I got a ten gallon, then wanted more fish, then had to separate fish and so on.

I wish I had just gotten a 210 gallon tank and be done with it.

But even more importantly, a bigger tank is much ore forgiving, and with small fresh water fish, live plants and good filtration, you are looking at a lot less maintenance. I have found the opposite of your last assertion to be more true. You have to have real passion to maintain a ten gallon tank.
I have maintained my amazon tank for long stretches of time with only partial water changes every couple of months.

You are probably assuming that since the 10 gallon was such a bother then a 10 gallon would be ten times more of a bother. but no after I experienced a bigger tank, I cringe at the thought of going smaller and all those water changes, testing and all that stuff.

but like I said, its just my opinion, others may share yours.

oh, one more thing, I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than a 5 gallon for a betta and a 30 gallon for a fan tail. those little one inch fantail will turn into an 8 inch whopper in two years. plus they are messy eaters and a 2.5 gallon would mean weekly water changes
You may be right,I have no idea because I have only ever had the 10 gal. one. However, I am not only including the time and effort that the OP will put into the aquarium, but also the expense. If they sink a thousand dollars into getting a 100 gal. tank set up { maybe more } and then decides it's not for them, it would be a far bigger loss than if they had started with a ten gal. tank with about a $100 dollar start up cost.
As you said, just my humble opinion.


Quote:
oh, one more thing, I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than a 5 gallon for a betta
Betta's can live in a drinking glass, although I think to make one do so is cruel, I dont care what the pet shop folks say.

Quote:
and a 30 gallon for a fan tail. those little one inch fantail will turn into an 8 inch whopper in two years. plus they are messy eaters and a 2.5 gallon would mean weekly water changes
Not in my experience. I have always had fantails and other golds in my ten gal. and they have always done well. The size of the fish is determined by the size of the tank. In myten gal. the golfish and a shark I have have grown, but have maintained their smaller size versus a lady I know who has had a 70 gal with the same sharks that have grown considerably larger than mine.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,495 posts, read 32,967,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
You may be right,I have no idea because I have only ever had the 10 gal. one. However, I am not only including the time and effort that the OP will put into the aquarium, but also the expense. If they sink a thousand dollars into getting a 100 gal. tank set up { maybe more } and then decides it's not for them, it would be a far bigger loss than if they had started with a ten gal. tank with about a $100 dollar start up cost.
As you said, just my humble opinion.
you don't need to get the tank new. I have gotten all my big tanks used. I paid 40 bucks for my 125 gallon (that is less than I paid for my 30 gallon). I also got another used tank for 35 bucks which came with an eheim pro filter (those things cost about 400 bucks new but clean like crazy)



Quote:
Betta's can live in a drinking glass, although I think to make one do so is cruel, I dont care what the pet shop folks say.
yeah bettas can survive in smaller tanks, but like I said I would not recommend anything smaller than 5 gallons


Quote:
Not in my experience. I have always had fantails and other golds in my ten gal. and they have always done well. The size of the fish is determined by the size of the tank. In myten gal. the golfish and a shark I have have grown, but have maintained their smaller size versus a lady I know who has had a 70 gal with the same sharks that have grown considerably larger than mine.
actually vets will tell you that that is a myth. the higher levels of toxins in a smaller tank does a toll on the goldfish's internal organs causing their growth to be stunted. so it is not that they grow to the tank, but the tank causes them to be stunted.

I grew some in my tank before I transferred them to a pond and they grew to over 8 inches in two years. My regular goldfish grew to about 12 inches in one year. For some reason they grow even faster in the same tank outside.
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,933 posts, read 12,902,340 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
you don't need to get the tank new. I have gotten all my big tanks used. I paid 40 bucks for my 125 gallon (that is less than I paid for my 30 gallon). I also got another used tank for 35 bucks which came with an eheim pro filter (those things cost about 400 bucks new but clean like crazy)
I would say you've been lucky. Tanks at that price are hard to come by. AND, even if you cann get it at that price, depending on what type of aquarium you want to have { i.e. saltwater/freshwater, cleaning system, decorations, types of fish and how many, etc. etc. } start up costs can still be quite the expense.


Quote:

actually vets will tell you that that is a myth. the higher levels of toxins in a smaller tank does a toll on the goldfish's internal organs causing their growth to be stunted. so it is not that they grow to the tank, but the tank causes them to be stunted.
Yep i've heard that to. All I have to impart is my own experience, and I have a goldfish in the tank thats been there for about 8-9 yrs, and he has maintained his smallness, and is as healthy as ever. Like I said, I think they would live through the apocalypse.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:53 AM
 
5,064 posts, read 15,905,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post



Not in my experience. I have always had fantails and other golds in my ten gal. and they have always done well. The size of the fish is determined by the size of the tank. In myten gal. the golfish and a shark I have have grown, but have maintained their smaller size versus a lady I know who has had a 70 gal with the same sharks that have grown considerably larger than mine.
That's a myth, an old wive's tale. You could live in a small closet all your life, but would it be healthy for you? No, and it certainly isn't healthy to put fish that are meant to grow 8"-12" long in a tiny tank. I've had fish all my life, including goldfish, and your goldfish and shark in their small tank are stunted for sure. They might be alive, and you might think they are healthy, but their organs are likely far too large for their stunted bodies, resulting in discomfort. Their bodies stop growing in length because they have no room to grow, but their organs continue to grow and their spines will bend in deformity. Please do your research before giving bad advice to others.

Editing to add that you can find great deals on Craigslist for aquariums, you just need to be diligent and check every day. I got my 46 bowfront with everything included for free. Larger tanks are MUCH easier to maintain than smaller ones, too.

Last edited by andthentherewere3; 03-18-2012 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,495 posts, read 32,967,780 times
Reputation: 7752
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post


I would say you've been lucky. Tanks at that price are hard to come by. AND, even if you cann get it at that price, depending on what type of aquarium you want to have { i.e. saltwater/freshwater, cleaning system, decorations, types of fish and how many, etc. etc. } start up costs can still be quite the expense.
I may have been lucky on finding large tanks but it is debatable on whether the cost in the long run is worth it. apart from my large tanks I have 9 smaller ones all filled with gravel, heaters, aerators, filters, plants and tropical fish. So lets look at the prices ignoring the tank cause like I said you can find great deals second hand.

so 9 filters at the cost of 45 a filter adds up to 405 dollars. You can buy 2 heavy duty filters enough to filter a 350 gallon tank with that price.

for 9 tanks, I bought at least 9 bags of gravel, at 10 bucks a bag that is $90 dollars in gravel. If faced with a larger tank, as I did when I got my larger tank I would simply go to Home depot and buy two 50 lbs bags of gravel. at $3.50 a bag the gravel for a 125 gallon tank comes out to be less than 8 bucks.

a heater costs $21 bucks for my small tanks. times 9 that comes to almost $200. I could have gotten two really good heaters for a huge tank and save more than $100.

an aerator costs about $7 times 9 that is over $60. A nicely planted tank doesn't even need an aerator, lookie there I just saved another $60. aerators in a planted tank are counter productive because it depletes the tank of dissolved gases the plants need to grow.

The plants and fish are a tie because the same ones in the smalls would grow in the big. apart from my Native River tank, all my fish can go together, its just that I can't cram them all into a tiny tank.

so lets review the costs for the smalls (Filtration -$405) +( Aeration- $60) + (Heating - $200) + (gravel - $90)= ~$ 750

125g Large planted tank-(Filtration -$100) +( Aeration- $0) + (Heating - $80) + (gravel - $8)= $188

I know that everyone isn't like me and would be content with a smaller tank, but the vast majority of aquarium hobbyist I have encountered wanted more.

even comparing a few small tanks to one big tank the start ups are not that different. The filter and lighting are the biggest difference in cost, but it is well worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andthentherewere3 View Post
You could live in a small closet all your life, but would it be healthy for you?
Its more like living in a closet with 5 chain smokers. Fish gills get messed up by chemicals in the water in addition to the damage done to their other organs.

Don't mean to gang up on Whipper Snapper, I am just sharing knowledge gained from over 2 decades of fish keeping.


I just hear it over and over again that a big tank is the way to go. If you decide you don't want large fish anymore, you tiny fish would be very happy in a big tank. You want big fish instead of small fish, well there you go, you already have the set up for it.

people in the aquarium change their minds quickly.

with a big enough tank you can go from large schools of tetras to African cichlids, without buying a new tank and wondering what you are going to do with the old one.

I just want to save the OP, and anyone thinking of starting up a tank, the hassle I went through with all my individual tanks.

1. Go bigger if you can afford cause you will want to later
2. One big tank is easier on electricity that 9 small ones
3. One big tank is cheaper to set up than 9 small ones
4. Fish are much healthier in a big tank than in small ones
5. You will have a lot more fun decorating a big tank than small ones
6. Larger tanks are more forgiving than smaller ones, and require less frequent cleaning



Quote:
Editing to add that you can find great deals on Craigslist for aquariums, you just need to be diligent and check every day. I got my 46 bowfront with everything included for free. Larger tanks are MUCH easier to maintain than smaller ones, too.
Yeah, I got an eheim filter along with some goodies for free on Craigslist.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:12 AM
 
166 posts, read 347,298 times
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But like real plants die though. Plastic ones last for ever.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,495 posts, read 32,967,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperManGuy View Post
But like real plants die though. Plastic ones last for ever.
lol, real plants die if you don't take care of them and give them proper lighting.

Real plants generate new ones which generate new ones. and before you know it you are putting adds online trying to get rid of some of your aquatic forest.

I went from one giant amazon sword to about 15 in a couple of months. They produce off- shoots at their roots or they may develop runners that produce baby plants right off the runner.

you can create attractive scapes with fake ones, but for me, real is more attractive, fun, and functional. My anacharis pumps out little air bubbles all day. It looks like a little air pump. The people at the pet store said you can only achieve that with heavy fertilization and fancy lighting. Yeah right, with Anacharis it is usually just stick it in the tank.

btw, don't add anacharis to your goldfish tank. To goldfish it is like catnip
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,933 posts, read 12,902,340 times
Reputation: 7399
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
I
an aerator costs about $7 times 9 that is over $60. A nicely planted tank doesn't even need an aerator, lookie there I just saved another $60. aerators in a planted tank are counter productive because it depletes the tank of dissolved gases the plants need to grow.
Talk about myths, this is one of the most common..... aeration. The fact is aquariums don't need aeration..... at all. It is for decorative purposes only, with virtualy no benefit at at all to the fish. The only reason an aeration system would be necessary is if you had an air driven filtration system or an air powered ornament. Other than minimal water circulation, thats about it. Even most pet shop employees fall for that one. I quit using one years ago.


Quote:
Its more like living in a closet with 5 chain smokers. Fish gills get messed up by chemicals in the water in addition to the damage done to their other organs.

Don't mean to gang up on Whipper Snapper, I am just sharing knowledge gained from over 2 decades of fish keeping
Actually, if you do the recommended 20% water change regularly, this shouldn't be a problem. With gold in your tank you may even want to do 25-30% changes.
.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by andthentherewere3 View Post
That's a myth, an old wive's tale. You could live in a small closet all your life, but would it be healthy for you? No, and it certainly isn't healthy to put fish that are meant to grow 8"-12" long in a tiny tank. I've had fish all my life, including goldfish, and your goldfish and shark in their small tank are stunted for sure. They might be alive, and you might think they are healthy, but their organs are likely far too large for their stunted bodies, resulting in discomfort. Their bodies stop growing in length because they have no room to grow, but their organs continue to grow and their spines will bend in deformity. Please do your research before giving bad advice to others.

Editing to add that you can find great deals on Craigslist for aquariums, you just need to be diligent and check every day. I got my 46 bowfront with everything included for free. Larger tanks are MUCH easier to maintain than smaller ones, too.



HAHA lol, calm down freind, it's only an internet forum.

Last edited by WhipperSnapper 88; 03-18-2012 at 02:04 PM..
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