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I personally love Flagstaff, but I can see why others might not like it so much. The cost of living is high compared to what you can expect to earn. It's not that bad compared to many many other areas in this country, but for what it is, Flagstaff can be expensive.
I got my bachelor's from NAU and it always felt more like home to me than where I grew up. But I grew up in the DC area, so to ME Flagstaff seems like a nice friendly small town and seemed cheap because I why wasn't working full-time. I also had a hard time understanding people ***** about the 'traffic' in this town. (come to DC guys, you don't even know what traffic is!) I am probably going back to earn a master's soon....compared to where I'm living here on the east coast, Flagstaff is still cheaper - because I'll be going to school full-time either way...but once I finish my master's, I will probably be forced to move away again, because I'll still need to support my wife and myself longer term.
I personally love Flagstaff, but I can see why others might not like it so much. The cost of living is high compared to what you can expect to earn. It's not that bad compared to many many other areas in this country, but for what it is, Flagstaff can be expensive.
I got my bachelor's from NAU and it always felt more like home to me than where I grew up. But I grew up in the DC area, so to ME Flagstaff seems like a nice friendly small town and seemed cheap because I why wasn't working full-time. I also had a hard time understanding people ***** about the 'traffic' in this town. (come to DC guys, you don't even know what traffic is!) I am probably going back to earn a master's soon....compared to where I'm living here on the east coast, Flagstaff is still cheaper - because I'll be going to school full-time either way...but once I finish my master's, I will probably be forced to move away again, because I'll still need to support my wife and myself longer term.
Flag may indeed be cheaper than Arlington let alone Georgetown.........the difference as you alluded to is the income potential in the Wash DC area is much greater so after paying the mortgage on a house/condo in the latter area one may still have more $$$ left over.
Northern Arizona Versus The West Coast, New York, And Colorado
[quote=kdog;6054950]Jeez Louise! Such an in-depth analysis of all the problems in Flagstaff, by a person that nobody wants to hire, and that nobody likes.
"I mean that's what you're saying, isn't it? This business about employers not returning phone calls -- welcome to the world, fella!"
*****Hey....back in Seattle where I was born and raised, *EVERYONE* returns *ALL* phone calls and e-mails. Totally different world up there.
"It's like that everywhere. Here you are talking about economics, and what's the first rule of economics? Supply and demand! If you can't get hired, it means YOU are not in demand. And whose fault is that? It's yours!"
*****Wait a minute....when people in Northern Arizona prefer to hire locals, or NAU students, and you're not from here and not a college student, then you're screwed. Flagstaff at first glance is seducing to young people who want an active outdoor lifestyle. However, there are other mountain towns with much better employment prospects that hire outsiders (i.e. Boulder, Colorado).
"And all these generalizations about "personality issues" is yet more self-serving bunk."
*****No it's not. Have you read the Wall Street Journal Personality Report? Arizona has a Conscientious score of about 9; and an Open to Experience score of about 30. Compare those numbers to Colorado, New York, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and California. People tend to move to areas of the country with personalities similar to their own. When they find themselves in an area where they feel like an outsider, they move on (as I will be doing soon).
"You show up in a town with no career and no job prospects with an attitude that the town owes you something, and then wonder why people shun you. Look inward, my friend."
*****Look inward at what? I came here with skills from previous careers, but nobody is interested, presumably because I'm an outsider with a West Coast personality type. I haven't had this problem in Vegas or Seattle.
"As to the rest of your economic analysis, who cares? If you actually had a career, you wouldn't be worrying about the price of a loaf of bread or the percentage of meal-tax in a restaurant."
*****Are you kidding? People here are outraged with the high taxes and the high prices at Safeway, Bashas, etc. They want a Superwallmart or Costco. The City Council won't lower taxes or allow bigger stores to come in. As ArizonaBear says in the post above, at least Prescott has a Costco.
Jeez Louise! Such an in-depth analysis of all the problems in Flagstaff, by a person that nobody wants to hire, and that nobody likes.
"I mean that's what you're saying, isn't it? This business about employers not returning phone calls -- welcome to the world, fella!"
*****Hey....back in Seattle where I was born and raised, *EVERYONE* returns *ALL* phone calls and e-mails. Totally different world up there.
"It's like that everywhere. Here you are talking about economics, and what's the first rule of economics? Supply and demand! If you can't get hired, it means YOU are not in demand. And whose fault is that? It's yours!"
*****Wait a minute....when people in Northern Arizona prefer to hire locals, or NAU students, and you're not from here and not a college student, then you're screwed. Flagstaff at first glance is seducing to young people who want an active outdoor lifestyle. However, there are other mountain towns with much better employment prospects that hire outsiders (i.e. Boulder, Colorado).
"And all these generalizations about "personality issues" is yet more self-serving bunk."
*****No it's not. Have you read the Wall Street Journal Personality Report? Arizona has a Conscientious score of about 9; and an Open to Experience score of about 30. Compare those numbers to Colorado, New York, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and California. People tend to move to areas of the country with personalities similar to their own. When they find themselves in an area where they feel like an outsider, they move on (as I will be doing soon).
"You show up in a town with no career and no job prospects with an attitude that the town owes you something, and then wonder why people shun you. Look inward, my friend."
*****Look inward at what? I came here with skills from previous careers, but nobody is interested, presumably because I'm an outsider with a West Coast personality type. I haven't had this problem in Vegas or Seattle.
"As to the rest of your economic analysis, who cares? If you actually had a career, you wouldn't be worrying about the price of a loaf of bread or the percentage of meal-tax in a restaurant."
*****Are you kidding? People here are outraged with the high taxes and the high prices at Safeway, Bashas, etc. They want a Superwallmart or Costco. The City Council won't lower taxes or allow bigger stores to come in. As ArizonaBear says in the post above, at least Prescott has a Costco.
Interesting; the paragraph of your post that i bolded really hit home for me.
I am originally from the Wash DC area; and, despite my self described 'liberal' leanings...........I typically am not 'at home' in most stereotypical liberal enclaves. For that matter: Fundie 'Christian' areas hit me wrong just as much.
SoCal is my spiritual hometown.............just that today, about the only enclave that still have 'come on in and stay a while' vibe area is around Yucca Valley/Joshua Tree. Not sure if it is due to the relative low cost of living coupled with a thriving artists' scene or what..............
*****Wait a minute....when people in Northern Arizona prefer to hire locals, or NAU students, and you're not from here and not a college student, then you're screwed.
That's a defeatist attitude. You simply need to distinguish yourself in the eyes of the employer. The fact that you're from Seattle and not a recent college graduate are your strengths and you need to lead with them.
Quote:
*****No it's not. Have you read the Wall Street Journal Personality Report? Arizona has a Conscientious score of about 9; and an Open to Experience score of about 30. Compare those numbers to Colorado, New York, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and California. People tend to move to areas of the country with personalities similar to their own. When they find themselves in an area where they feel like an outsider, they move on (as I will be doing soon).
I'm an old fart working in the high-tech community. I compete with the best talent from India, China, and the US. If I believed every "report" that was published, I'd be out of a job right now. Be your own person, not a statistic in a report.
Quote:
*****Look inward at what? I came here with skills from previous careers, but nobody is interested, presumably because I'm an outsider with a West Coast personality type. I haven't had this problem in Vegas or Seattle.
The operative word there is "presumably". You need to make an honest assessment of your skills and the job market there and find out why they're not matching up. Ditto for the persona you project. I've been in the business world for a very long time, almost assuredly longer than you've been alive. One thing I can tell you for sure is that any company that expects to stay in business realizes its biggest asset it its employees. They need the very best people in order to be competitive. It's not a popularity contest, and I can assure you that hiring locals is the least of their worries. Take Kingman for example. The industries here generally have to relocate folks from out of town for key positions. In fact, that's how we ended up in Kingman.
Just out of curiosity, how did you end up in Flagstaff without a good job?
Quote:
*****Are you kidding? People here are outraged with the high taxes and the high prices at Safeway, Bashas, etc. They want a Superwallmart or Costco. The City Council won't lower taxes or allow bigger stores to come in. As ArizonaBear says in the post above, at least Prescott has a Costco.
I understand the whole poverty-with-a-view situation there. But frankly, I don't buy your analysis. For one thing, there is a Walmart in town. You're telling me that the city council said "fine, you can open a Walmart if you don't sell groceries there"? Ridiculous. You almost mentioned buying tires. There's a Big O Tires in town which has excellent prices, and uniform national pricing. So there's no Smith's? You've got Safeway, no? I could go on...
I am a massage therapist, and Reiki practioner currently living in Florida and have been uhappy since moving here 3 years ago because of my mother in laws illness. Florida education values are low and as a result therapists are treated with little respect and even expected to work discount rates when certain areas are out of season. I am lookin at a possible move to Arizona. I have heard of Sedona made mention many times for all of its spiritual energy, but I want to work for myself and not at a resort or spa. How feasable is it for me to be able to have a loyal client basis in a resort town of tourists? My husband is a truck driver and basically can relocate us in any area
I live in Sedona and have many firends that are massage therapists and it is a very tough go as so many here are massage theraspists. One woman I know charges $40 an hour, which is WAY less than the average rate and she is always busy but many of the others are not. I am of a mind that when there's a will there's a way (but it isn't always easy).
More Comments Regarding "Poverty With A View" From The "Ghetto In The Meadow"
Kdog in Kingmann wrote:
"That's a defeatist attitude. You simply need to distinguish yourself in the eyes of the employer. The fact that you're from Seattle and not a recent college graduate are your strengths and you need to lead with them."
*******Good point. In addition to this, move to places like Boulder, CO. where they welcome everyone and don't care where you're from.....Sounds to me like Kingman, AZ doesn't care where people are from, do you think so?
"Take Kingman for example. The industries here generally have to relocate folks from out of town for key positions. In fact, that's how we ended up in Kingman."
*******Well......at least you HAVE industry / high tech down there in Kingman. In Flagstaff, thanks to the dysfunctional City Council, there is hardly any industry and very little high tech. Compare that to Boulder, CO; or Albuquerque, NM, where local economic policies encourage high tech companies to come in.....Mayor Martin J. Cha`vez in Albuquerque gives tax incentives to "green businesses" who relocate to Albuquerque. Gov. Bill Richardson is recruiting the film industry. Albuquerque also revitalized its downtown, with loft apartments, new entertaintment venues, etc., Richard Florida style. A good example for Flagstaff to follow if they want to evolve into a medium sized competitive market (like Kingmann!).
"I understand the whole poverty-with-a-view situation there. But frankly, I don't buy your analysis. For one thing, there is a Walmart in town. You're telling me that the city council said "fine, you can open a Walmart if you don't sell groceries there"? Ridiculous.
********We have a scaled down Wallmart in Flagstaff without the traditional expanded food section that is typical of larger Superwallmarts. By 930pm in this scaled down Wallmart, the most frequently purchased items are gone from the shelves, due to excessive demand and insufficient shelf space. Most people here are angry with the high prices at Bashas, Safeway, Albertsons. I always get angry in these stores. In the Winslow Wallmart a few weeks ago, I had a "very pleasant shopping experience." LOL One other thing - The Flagstaff City Council is irresponsible in not raising the Minimum Wage like Albuquerque and Santa Fe, NM both did. And, the Flag City Council is not liberal at all when they restrict a Superwallmart which would drive costs down of all the major grocery stores. In Albuquerque, Smiths is the leading grocery chain, competing with 18 Superwallmarts (the 18th is brand new as of 2008, in Bernalillo, NM). Smiths knows that they have to keep prices down to compete with the Superwallmart. If we had a Superwallmart in Flagstaff, the existing grocery chains would be forced to lower their prices. This would help end the poverty problem here.
"There's a Big O Tires in town which has excellent prices, and uniform national pricing."
********The pricing here is unfortunately not as uniform as you suggest. They do jack the prices up here because they know they can get it from students and tourists. It's an unethical practice to do this to students, and I would never conduct a business this way. They don't do it around the University of NM in Albuquerque. The prices in Flag are higher than Winslow, Cottonwood, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, and everywhere else I've travelled to in the Southwest. Not to mention the high bar/restaurant and sales taxes in Flagstaff. And, if you own a business, the taxes are much higher than in Winslow. Flag also have very high "impact fees" for new construction, although the new city council just slashed these. Even apartment rents are 10% cheaper in Sedona!
********Personally, I was for Morgan Hagaman when he was running for City Council. He is a fiscal conservative and wanted to eliminate the taxes on new construction. This would allow more affordable housing to come in, helping the poor and students. That's one thing that liberals just don't get - when taxes are too high, you pay more for rent and food. And, you can't hire as many employees. And, doctors don't take various Insurance plans and Medicare.
********Flagstaff has a lot of work to do. When people nickname this place "poverty with a view," and "the ghetto in the meadow," that sends a horrible image to newcomers. It's love at first sight with the scenery and charming downtown, and then an ugly divorce. Flagstaff won't succeed unless they bring in some economists from the Richard Florida group or another progressive-minded think tank.
That is ridiculous that apt rents in Sedona are cheaper overall than Flagstaff................especially factoring in the much better climate in the former city.
You are correct about the downtown part of Flag along Rte 66.............it is (or was) a neat place.
Again: more and more, Flagstaff's biggest direct competitor outside of winter sports is Prescott IMHO. Of the two places----------it would be Prescott hands down for me. 10 degree warmer winter temps tend to do that to these frozen old bones.
That is ridiculous that apt rents in Sedona are cheaper overall than Flagstaff................especially factoring in the much better climate in the former city.
You are correct about the downtown part of Flag along Rte 66.............it is (or was) a neat place.
Again: more and more, Flagstaff's biggest direct competitor outside of winter sports is Prescott IMHO. Of the two places----------it would be Prescott hands down for me. 10 degree warmer winter temps tend to do that to these frozen old bones.
1.Apartment rents: In my limited experience in Arizona for part of 2008, I've noted that Sedona apartment rents for a single person (i.e. a studio or 1 bedroom) average about $100 less than Flagstaff apartment rents for a single person. That's based on the Sedona Red Rock News (paper) vs. phone calls to local apartments in Flagstaff. Perhaps this is a recent trend, since you report otherwise and have been here longer. I hope it will reverse, because the high rents are not fair to the studens at NAU. And, Prescott rents average up to $200 less. In the Flagstaff area, rents in Kachina Village, Mountainnaire, Doney Park, and Mountain Dell average $100 less than within Flagstaff city limits.....
I think the rent problem in Flagstaff is that there are just a few companies that own most of the apartments (i.e. RPI Services). I think it's likely that they increase the rents because they know they can get it from upper white middle class students, whose rent is paid for by their rich parents in metro Phoenix. In addition, the Flagstaff apartments also charge additional fees for water, sewer, garbage, and even wi-fi internet. And, you have to put gas and electric in your own name. It's crazy.
2.Cost Of Living And The City Council. Again, if the City Council would reduce the construction impact fees to zero, and start auctioning off city owned lands, then you can bet that enterprising builders would come in and build affordable apartments to compete with the existing delapidated overpriced apartments. Look at the Arbors, although they are no longer apartments (now converted into condos), they are the most architecturally modern, and the best place to rent in town. Many of the rich condo owners (who often live in Phoenix) rent out the Arbors to renters for as low as $750/month. That price beats many apartment rents in town, including many apartment complexes owned by RPI services.
3.Delapidated Downtown Flagstaff. Downtown Flagstaff could be revitalized with loft apartments and perhaps a walking mall, similar to Boulder or Albuquerque. That will encourage young professionals to move to town with their small businesses. A city's economy in this new age of the recession cannot survive without local small businesses in the high tech fields such as software firms, like Boulder has. Flagstaff will not survive with just tourism, college students, college professors, cat food production plants, and monkey labs (i.e. W. L. Gore) fueling the economy. Unfortunately, the city put all their energy into building a strip mall at the bottom of a hill next to the cat food production plant with a Best Buy / Linens 'n Things / Cost Plus World Market / Old Navy / Home Depot / plus an auto mall on the far, far east end of town. This area is depopulated and the new big box stores receive very little business. One of the big box stores is even going out of business, can't recall which one.
Anyway, a lot of my ideas are not mine, but are based from those of Dr. Richard Florida, who talks about the Creative Class and urban renewal... Click Here - Richard Florida - Creative Class
I lived in Flagstaff for one year.....Also, if your a liberal (like me) its probably one of the few places in Arizona that you will find even slightly hospitable (that unfortunately isn't saying much though). That being said, in my opinion that is largely where Flagstaff's charms end......If your traveling its one thing, your going to make the effort, but if you live there its kind of a pain to get out of Flag. Its pretty isolated. Flagstaff is socio-economically depressed and there isn't a whole lot of opportunity. There isn't much going on and I didn't feel a sense of community. It feels uneducated and uncultured, even with the university there. Although the areas outside of Flagstaff are incredible, Flagstaff itself isn't all that beautiful (try Boulder instead).....Boulder, CO is more expensive but if you want a cool, progressive mountain town, that is where its at.
I agree, I've been here for half a year and am leaving. You're right about there not being much of a sense of community in Flagstaff. Friends never return telephone calls. Neighbors don't come over and say hello; YOU have to make the effort to go meet your neighbors (if you even want to). Back in Seattle, where I spent over two decades, if you move to a new suburb and neighbors don't say hello and invite you indoors for coffee, we usually think of them as criminals or socially deviant. So when Flagstaffites don't invite us in, we "judge" them, erroneously.
I also found this to be the case in Albuquerque and Santa Fe, NM. However, later I found out that I was living on what is nicknamed "Snob Hill" (i.e. Nob Hill in Albuquerque)! If I had been living in the North Valley (of ABQ), I would have a different view. I am looking for a progressive mountain town with economic opportunities so I'll consider Boulder. I've been told that as of November 2008, neither Boulder or Santa Fe, NM are in a recession. Flagstaff and all of northern AZ is in a very deep recession w/ at least a 30% unemployment rate if you count the unemployed and homeless students at NAU (Northern Arizona University).
Of all the Southwest US city forums on City-Data, it seems that Flagstaff and Albuquerque have a tremendous quantity of "negative" comments. However, many of the negative comments are from outsiders from both coasts like myself, who are used to different standards. Many of these "complaints" are just observations, and locals would probably be offended.
The United States is diverse, and each region is different. I guess we all need to all find our niche. Open to Experience personality types clash with the Consciencious personality types in AZ and NM. We don't belong here. I have yet to meet anyone from the Coasts who has moved to AZ or NM and stayed longer than a year or two. In New Mexico, I conducted a Craigs List poll, and got emails back of people from California saying they hated Albuquerque and wanted to go back. Boulder/Denver, Colorado? Probably the answer for all of us! It's the USA and I guess we need to put stereotypes aside, drop our resentment, and find the best place! Thanks to City-Data for providing these forums where real people can post their own opinions! I'm in the communcations/media field and appreciate this form of discourse.
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Northern Arizona Versus The West Coast, New York, And Colorado
Unfortunately, the city put all their energy into building a strip mall at the bottom of a hill next to the cat food production plant 
