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It seems like most of the posters are in agreement that it's not a good market for Flipping. Which ever way you do it... Homes are on the market for ever and ever and buyers are looking for the dirt cheap deals."Low, Low, Lower prices". Normal sales are almost non-existent. Foreclosures and Short Sales are the IN thing right now.. Maybe some land sales (must be dirt cheap) pardon the punn.. So good luck Flipping! You will need lots of patience and $$$$ to hold on for a while. (A long while)
There's a guy right in my neighborhood who renovates buildings which have been neglected. He creates safe, decent, relatively affordable housing, and employs a couple of dozen local young people who learn the trades through his efforts. Call him a flipper and he'd roll his eyes...
Your friend may think he's better than a "flipper" but is he?
"relatively affordable"??? Why is it only relatively affordable??? Could it be because he is in it for profit?
"employs young unskilled labor"??? Why? Perhaps because it's cheaper?
Does he provide insurance and benefits for this young unskilled laborers? Doubt it...that would kill his profit margin.
Don't try to make people think that your friend is some "altruistic" capitalist.
No matter how one views "rehabbing vs. flipping" the bottom line is it seems like sheer insanity to do it now. I just read in the Sarasota paper today that SW Florida has seen about 5,500 foreclosures just since the BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR! That, to me, is mind-boggling. Those values down there are dropping faster than hot potatoes! And it's going to be that way for at least a couple of years, if not more after which the market will be flat. I'm sure some areas of Fla. are probably not as hard hit as this, but still.... With all those empty homes, you can't even get renters!
Here in my town if Lakeland, NOTHING is selling unless it's a give-away - most sellers are in la-la land as to what their homes are worth. I think the only people who should buy right now are those who want to take advantage of a low price through buying a foreclosure who plan to LIVE in it or HOLD it for a good number of years. I now believe this is going to last for a very long time.
Your friend may think he's better than a "flipper" but is he?
"relatively affordable"??? Why is it only relatively affordable??? Could it be because he is in it for profit?
"employs young unskilled labor"??? Why? Perhaps because it's cheaper?
Does he provide insurance and benefits for this young unskilled laborers? Doubt it...that would kill his profit margin.
Don't try to make people think that your friend is some "altruistic" capitalist.
You've put a lot of words in my mouth ("altruistic", "better", "unskilled", just for starters.) I'll decline to argue whatever point you're trying to make, since I'd want to use my own words, thanks.
I'm not trying to "make people think" anything, Carbondated.
I have no axe to grind, and merely made a useful distinction.
I've met the guy I'm referring to once.
He's known for buying nearly uninhabitable homes and employing local young people to bring them up to code, make them attractive and sell them.
Doesn't seem villainous to me, but I must be missing something.
Last edited by chaz longue; 04-15-2008 at 08:04 PM..
Your friend may think he's better than a "flipper" but is he?
"relatively affordable"??? Why is it only relatively affordable??? Could it be because he is in it for profit?
"employs young unskilled labor"??? Why? Perhaps because it's cheaper?
Does he provide insurance and benefits for this young unskilled laborers? Doubt it...that would kill his profit margin.
Don't try to make people think that your friend is some "altruistic" capitalist.
Well that's interesting. Apparently you are trying to sell the poster on something they didn't say and argue against that.
I am going to repeat something postive I heard.
Warren Buffet was asked on a news program about the real estate crisis and here is what good old Warren Buffet said:
" There are 6.1 billion people on the planet and they all need a home "
Buffet continued:
" People will always buy houses, buy disposable razors and buy coke-a-cola to drink"
then the Sage of Omaha took a swig of cherry coke on camera and talked about price and fundamentals, fundamental costs as indicators of basic fundamental value.
Housing was inflated by non verifiable, non viable, non fundamental, non cost effective, non cost efficient, inflated units with BS 'premiums' placed on housing units by greedy sellers. And ez lending and loose money from banks and pooled sub prime lenders added fuel to that dupe markets greed.
The original goal was to equalize lending, and make loans available for the poor, for people of color, for women, for low income folks, for once marginalized groups, and people with prior credit problems, etc. and get these groups into AFFORDABLE housing units and home ownership.
But the good intentioned program was HIJACKED... by greedy punks and dumb greedy sluts.
GREED with the new lending programs that were MEANT to FACILITATE THE ECONOMY and INCLUDE ALL in home unit ownership went awry due to sellers builders flippers and lenders greed.
Greed and lack of oversight caused the programs to go wrong and inflation occured by the rush of new buyers, once marginalized by banks, these new now 'credit worthy' buyers increased demand and caused 'sellers to inflate' prices, 'underwriters to overlook 25 to 32% safety margins', and appraisers that were pressured to overvalue and inflate, IF they wanted a call back and more work, bankers/loan officers were PRESSURED by bad managers to write new loans regardless of quality or viability to get more biz, so SLOPPY PRACTICES resulted in lending and selling and appraising, and FUNDAMENTAL VALUE PRICING of housing units got lost in the greed rush.
NOW. People who buy low and sell low make a profit and will continue to make a profit. Thier taxes stay low and hoas stay low. NO FRAUD INFLATION. Gouger overpriced units will sit vacant on market until they sell at AFFORDABLE LOW COST fundamental value and cost, ie. at auction.
Seems every marble tile guy contractor developer thought he was michealangelo and wanted a gougers profit for no real housing unit fundamental value, a counter is a counter, a turlit is a turlit, most rational people do not want mini saddam huessain ivory turlits and marble countertops, and those who even want such garish can not afford to overpay for such non fundamental overpriced nonsense.
PEOPLE WANT AND PEOPLE BUY AFFORDABLE LOW COST HOUSING. Duh. Bustouts and churners and slumlords seek the high turnover transients populations. High turnover transient population areas are usually blighted ghost towns that are undesireable and inappropriate for decent living. Atlantic city is an example of a premium high priced decrepit gouger slumtown that even broke welfare recipients do not want to live in.
THE USA AND GLOBAL DEMOGRAPHICS CALL FOR LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I repeat: THE ACTUAL USA DEMOGRAPHIC DEMAND CALLS FOR LOST COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I repeat: THE NEED, THE DEMAND, IN USA, IS FOR LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING, FOR THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.
Buffet from 2001 to present, bought and owns companies that built LOW COST AFFORDABLE MANUFACTURED HOME HOUSING UNITS ALL UP AND DOWN THE EAST COAST. Keywords LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. People know when they are being gouged and they devalue and abandon gougers and gougers prices. Most inflated price developers builders and flippers are 2/3rds in the wringer now and being wrung to death.
The most successful developers I know built and continue to build LOW COST AFFORDABLE HANDICAPPED HOUSING for the last 7 to 10 years and they have WAITING LISTS from low income handicapped buyers. The other successful developers built LOW COST AFFORDABLE SRO'S, SINGLE ROOM OCCUPANCY HOUSING UNITS and they do very well in the LOW COST AFFORDABLE housing unit markets. These wise builders did thier homework and did wise, sane business and studied POPULATION INCOME, AND POPULATION DEMOGRAPHICS, AND PUBLIC DEMAND and knew the " NEED " I repeat, the " NEED" , the "DEMAND" in USA was/is for, LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. These low cost affordable housing unit builders still make a profit in building low cost affordable housing units and they were and are UNTOUCHED and unharmed by the inflators and gougers housing crisis suffered in the overpriced unaffordable inflated bustout styrofoam mcmansion markets and no FUNDAMENTAL TRUE value bustout irrational mcpremium overtaxed over hoa gouged inflated no fundamental value 'premium' markets.
WAL-MART gives FUNDAMENTAL VALUE, and wal-mart is ready to own the globe. Gucci pucci and bed bath and beyond sell premium and only a drunk paris hilton at saks buys non fundamental, ' premium' non-sense. Most specialty premium stores are going OUT OF BUSINESS because they can not compete with walmarts FUNDAMENTAL VALUE and low cost and affordable low prices.
Most of real america works, suffers ageing, suffers loss of income in job changes, suffers disabilities, suffers health ups and downs, suffers job downsizing, suffers loss of jobs, many families have unexpected increase in family size, kids, ill elders, etc,. and have income fluctuations, most americans have unexpected expenses, and job and career changes are more prevalent then any other time and retirees will live on 1/3rd of thier working incomes, most USA retirees live below poverty levels and today there are more single parent headed households with low income, and in general immagrant populations do not make high saleries, they are the minimum wage workers and guess what, they need decent affordable low cost housing also.
More then ever USA needs low cost AFFORDABLE HOUSING, so Americans can weather life and career changes, ups and downs, family changes in health careers ageing etc. If inflated price gougers still want to live in inflated price gouger land they will continue to go bankrupt until thier mcdumps sell at auction, and are at low cost affordable housing levels.
The majority of home buyers and sellers are low income buyers and sellers, that market will carry on.
The people who are irrational will continue to price gouge, inflate, cause overtax and inflate hoa's, and those buyers will be the irrational bustouts who go into foreclosure. People who want overpriced 30 foot cathedral ceilings will bustout. 10 foot ceilings are fine for rational housing unit buyers and are more cost effective, to heat and cool. The overpriced inflated claptrap styrofoam mcmansion developers and builders and the banks who loaned and the buyers who overpaid are the fundamental value losers in this housing correction.
Last edited by jay2007; 04-17-2008 at 03:27 AM..
Reason: spelling
I am going to repeat something postive I heard.
Warren Buffet was asked on a news program about the real estate crisis and here is what good old Warren Buffet said:
" There are 6.1 billion people on the planet and they all need a home "
Buffet continued:
" People will always buy houses, buy disposable razors and buy coke-a-cola to drink"
then the Sage of Omaha took a swig of cherry coke on camera and talked about price and fundamentals, fundamental costs as indicators of basic fundamental value.
Housing was inflated by non verifiable, non viable, non fundamental, non cost effective, non cost efficient, inflated units with BS 'premiums' placed on housing units by greedy sellers. And ez lending and loose money from banks and pooled sub prime lenders added fuel to that dupe markets greed.
The original goal was to equalize lending, and make loans available for the poor, for people of color, for women, for low income folks, for once marginalized groups, and people with prior credit problems, etc. and get these groups into AFFORDABLE housing units and home ownership.
But the good intentioned program was HIJACKED... by greedy punks and dumb greedy sluts.
GREED with the new lending programs that were MEANT to FACILITATE THE ECONOMY and INCLUDE ALL in home unit ownership went awry due to sellers builders flippers and lenders greed.
Greed and lack of oversight caused the programs to go wrong and inflation occured by the rush of new buyers, once marginalized by banks, these new now 'credit worthy' buyers increased demand and caused 'sellers to inflate' prices, 'underwriters to overlook 25 to 32% safety margins', and appraisers that were pressured to overvalue and inflate, IF they wanted a call back and more work, bankers/loan officers were PRESSURED by bad managers to write new loans regardless of quality or viability to get more biz, so SLOPPY PRACTICES resulted in lending and selling and appraising, and FUNDAMENTAL VALUE PRICING of housing units got lost in the greed rush.
NOW. People who buy low and sell low make a profit and will continue to make a profit. Thier taxes stay low and hoas stay low. NO FRAUD INFLATION. Gouger overpriced units will sit vacant on market until they sell at AFFORDABLE LOW COST fundamental value and cost, ie. at auction.
Seems every marble tile guy contractor developer thought he was michealangelo and wanted a gougers profit for no real housing unit fundamental value, a counter is a counter, a turlit is a turlit, most rational people do not want mini saddam huessain ivory turlits and marble countertops, and those who even want such garish can not afford to overpay for such non fundamental overpriced nonsense.
PEOPLE WANT AND PEOPLE BUY AFFORDABLE LOW COST HOUSING. Duh. Bustouts and churners and slumlords seek the high turnover transients populations. High turnover transient population areas are usually blighted ghost towns that are undesireable and inappropriate for decent living. Atlantic city is an example of a premium high priced decrepit gouger slumtown that even broke welfare recipients do not want to live in.
THE USA AND GLOBAL DEMOGRAPHICS CALL FOR LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I repeat: THE ACTUAL USA DEMOGRAPHIC DEMAND CALLS FOR LOST COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I repeat: THE NEED, THE DEMAND, IN USA, IS FOR LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING, FOR THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.
Buffet from 2001 to present, bought and owns companies that built LOW COST AFFORDABLE MANUFACTURED HOME HOUSING UNITS ALL UP AND DOWN THE EAST COAST. Keywords LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. People know when they are being gouged and they devalue and abandon gougers and gougers prices. Most inflated price developers builders and flippers are 2/3rds in the wringer now and being wrung to death.
The most successful developers I know built and continue to build LOW COST AFFORDABLE HANDICAPPED HOUSING for the last 7 to 10 years and they have WAITING LISTS from low income handicapped buyers. The other successful developers built LOW COST AFFORDABLE SRO'S, SINGLE ROOM OCCUPANCY HOUSING UNITS and they do very well in the LOW COST AFFORDABLE housing unit markets. These wise builders did thier homework and did wise, sane business and studied POPULATION INCOME, AND POPULATION DEMOGRAPHICS, AND PUBLIC DEMAND and knew the " NEED " I repeat, the " NEED" , the "DEMAND" in USA was/is for, LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. These low cost affordable housing unit builders still make a profit in building low cost affordable housing units and they were and are UNTOUCHED and unharmed by the inflators and gougers housing crisis suffered in the overpriced unaffordable inflated bustout styrofoam mcmansion markets and no FUNDAMENTAL TRUE value bustout irrational mcpremium overtaxed over hoa gouged inflated no fundamental value 'premium' markets.
WAL-MART gives FUNDAMENTAL VALUE, and wal-mart is ready to own the globe. Gucci pucci and bed bath and beyond sell premium and only a drunk paris hilton at saks buys non fundamental, ' premium' non-sense. Most specialty premium stores are going OUT OF BUSINESS because they can not compete with walmarts FUNDAMENTAL VALUE and low cost and affordable low prices.
Most of real america works, suffers ageing, suffers loss of income in job changes, suffers disabilities, suffers health ups and downs, suffers job downsizing, suffers loss of jobs, many families have unexpected increase in family size, kids, ill elders, etc,. and have income fluctuations, most americans have unexpected expenses, and job and career changes are more prevalent then any other time and retirees will live on 1/3rd of thier working incomes, most USA retirees live below poverty levels and today there are more single parent headed households with low income, and in general immagrant populations do not make high saleries, they are the minimum wage workers and guess what, they need decent affordable low cost housing also.
More then ever USA needs low cost AFFORDABLE HOUSING, so Americans can weather life and career changes, ups and downs, family changes in health careers ageing etc. If inflated price gougers still want to live in inflated price gouger land they will continue to go bankrupt until thier mcdumps sell at auction, and are at low cost affordable housing levels.
The majority of home buyers and sellers are low income buyers and sellers, that market will carry on.
The people who are irrational will continue to price gouge, inflate, cause overtax and inflate hoa's, and those buyers will be the irrational bustouts who go into foreclosure. People who want overpriced 30 foot cathedral ceilings will bustout. 10 foot ceilings are fine for rational housing unit buyers and are more cost effective, to heat and cool. The overpriced inflated claptrap styrofoam mcmansion developers and builders and the banks who loaned and the buyers who overpaid are the fundamental value losers in this housing correction.
This is the best post you have ever written. I actually completely agree with everything you said.
I am going to repeat something postive I heard.
Warren Buffet was asked on a news program about the real estate crisis and here is what good old Warren Buffet said:
" There are 6.1 billion people on the planet and they all need a home "
Buffet continued:
" People will always buy houses, buy disposable razors and buy coke-a-cola to drink"
then the Sage of Omaha took a swig of cherry coke on camera and talked about price and fundamentals, fundamental costs as indicators of basic fundamental value.
Housing was inflated by non verifiable, non viable, non fundamental, non cost effective, non cost efficient, inflated units with BS 'premiums' placed on housing units by greedy sellers. And ez lending and loose money from banks and pooled sub prime lenders added fuel to that dupe markets greed.
The original goal was to equalize lending, and make loans available for the poor, for people of color, for women, for low income folks, for once marginalized groups, and people with prior credit problems, etc. and get these groups into AFFORDABLE housing units and home ownership.
But the good intentioned program was HIJACKED... by greedy punks and dumb greedy sluts.
GREED with the new lending programs that were MEANT to FACILITATE THE ECONOMY and INCLUDE ALL in home unit ownership went awry due to sellers builders flippers and lenders greed.
Greed and lack of oversight caused the programs to go wrong and inflation occured by the rush of new buyers, once marginalized by banks, these new now 'credit worthy' buyers increased demand and caused 'sellers to inflate' prices, 'underwriters to overlook 25 to 32% safety margins', and appraisers that were pressured to overvalue and inflate, IF they wanted a call back and more work, bankers/loan officers were PRESSURED by bad managers to write new loans regardless of quality or viability to get more biz, so SLOPPY PRACTICES resulted in lending and selling and appraising, and FUNDAMENTAL VALUE PRICING of housing units got lost in the greed rush.
NOW. People who buy low and sell low make a profit and will continue to make a profit. Thier taxes stay low and hoas stay low. NO FRAUD INFLATION. Gouger overpriced units will sit vacant on market until they sell at AFFORDABLE LOW COST fundamental value and cost, ie. at auction.
Seems every marble tile guy contractor developer thought he was michealangelo and wanted a gougers profit for no real housing unit fundamental value, a counter is a counter, a turlit is a turlit, most rational people do not want mini saddam huessain ivory turlits and marble countertops, and those who even want such garish can not afford to overpay for such non fundamental overpriced nonsense.
PEOPLE WANT AND PEOPLE BUY AFFORDABLE LOW COST HOUSING. Duh. Bustouts and churners and slumlords seek the high turnover transients populations. High turnover transient population areas are usually blighted ghost towns that are undesireable and inappropriate for decent living. Atlantic city is an example of a premium high priced decrepit gouger slumtown that even broke welfare recipients do not want to live in.
THE USA AND GLOBAL DEMOGRAPHICS CALL FOR LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I repeat: THE ACTUAL USA DEMOGRAPHIC DEMAND CALLS FOR LOST COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I repeat: THE NEED, THE DEMAND, IN USA, IS FOR LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING, FOR THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.
Buffet from 2001 to present, bought and owns companies that built LOW COST AFFORDABLE MANUFACTURED HOME HOUSING UNITS ALL UP AND DOWN THE EAST COAST. Keywords LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. People know when they are being gouged and they devalue and abandon gougers and gougers prices. Most inflated price developers builders and flippers are 2/3rds in the wringer now and being wrung to death.
The most successful developers I know built and continue to build LOW COST AFFORDABLE HANDICAPPED HOUSING for the last 7 to 10 years and they have WAITING LISTS from low income handicapped buyers. The other successful developers built LOW COST AFFORDABLE SRO'S, SINGLE ROOM OCCUPANCY HOUSING UNITS and they do very well in the LOW COST AFFORDABLE housing unit markets. These wise builders did thier homework and did wise, sane business and studied POPULATION INCOME, AND POPULATION DEMOGRAPHICS, AND PUBLIC DEMAND and knew the " NEED " I repeat, the " NEED" , the "DEMAND" in USA was/is for, LOW COST AFFORDABLE HOUSING. These low cost affordable housing unit builders still make a profit in building low cost affordable housing units and they were and are UNTOUCHED and unharmed by the inflators and gougers housing crisis suffered in the overpriced unaffordable inflated bustout styrofoam mcmansion markets and no FUNDAMENTAL TRUE value bustout irrational mcpremium overtaxed over hoa gouged inflated no fundamental value 'premium' markets.
WAL-MART gives FUNDAMENTAL VALUE, and wal-mart is ready to own the globe. Gucci pucci and bed bath and beyond sell premium and only a drunk paris hilton at saks buys non fundamental, ' premium' non-sense. Most specialty premium stores are going OUT OF BUSINESS because they can not compete with walmarts FUNDAMENTAL VALUE and low cost and affordable low prices.
Most of real america works, suffers ageing, suffers loss of income in job changes, suffers disabilities, suffers health ups and downs, suffers job downsizing, suffers loss of jobs, many families have unexpected increase in family size, kids, ill elders, etc,. and have income fluctuations, most americans have unexpected expenses, and job and career changes are more prevalent then any other time and retirees will live on 1/3rd of thier working incomes, most USA retirees live below poverty levels and today there are more single parent headed households with low income, and in general immagrant populations do not make high saleries, they are the minimum wage workers and guess what, they need decent affordable low cost housing also.
More then ever USA needs low cost AFFORDABLE HOUSING, so Americans can weather life and career changes, ups and downs, family changes in health careers ageing etc. If inflated price gougers still want to live in inflated price gouger land they will continue to go bankrupt until thier mcdumps sell at auction, and are at low cost affordable housing levels.
The majority of home buyers and sellers are low income buyers and sellers, that market will carry on.
The people who are irrational will continue to price gouge, inflate, cause overtax and inflate hoa's, and those buyers will be the irrational bustouts who go into foreclosure. People who want overpriced 30 foot cathedral ceilings will bustout. 10 foot ceilings are fine for rational housing unit buyers and are more cost effective, to heat and cool. The overpriced inflated claptrap styrofoam mcmansion developers and builders and the banks who loaned and the buyers who overpaid are the fundamental value losers in this housing correction.
I'm not a fan of the StarterCastle, myself.
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On the bright side
