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Old 03-12-2015, 03:38 PM
 
2,375 posts, read 2,674,447 times
Reputation: 4184

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
If there was no business there would be no jobs at all. Why is it that people who perform their work tasks better than a co worker in a right to work state earn more than a poor performer?? Those who complain about the fact that they cant join a union, be a slacker and still make the same wage as the better worker. That thinking causes everybody in a union job to slack off and gives the employer the inability to provide a superior product or service. Union people figure they may as well slack off as much as the other guy so that the employer get the shaft.
That's exactly what employers want you to think. I would have been right there with you 30 years ago, but I watched as the IT industry was decimated in late 1980's and 1990's. There were no unions. Companies were crying to Congress they couldn't get qualified workers. The key to that sentence was it was never finished- "They couldn't get qualified workers, at the rate they wanted to pay." So what did Congress do- up the H1B visa count.

Now you could get a cheap foreign worker who wanted to come to the US and didn't mind bunking 10 to an apartment and getting on a plane and going where ever they told him to go. Meanwhile the US worker was training his foreign replacement. People who have families can't bunk 10 to an apartment and work in different cities indefinitely. Would a union have stopped that- yeah! I find it interesting that this never would have happened in Germany as their work laws stipulate the job has to go (or stay) with a German citizen before they can put foreigners in there. And their economy is doing fine.

One last thought- the immigrants the people in this country should have been up in arms about aren't the farm workers- it was the high skilled, college educated jobs in the IT industry that flew out the door at the end of the last century. Those were jobs that supported the middle class.

So before we go wawa, poor business, no jobs, it's the inaction by our bought and paid for Congress and the business greed that has put the country in this position. There is no reason businesses can't be made to tow the line if they want to do business in this country.
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Old 03-12-2015, 04:28 PM
 
12,022 posts, read 12,656,919 times
Reputation: 5981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_liking_FL View Post
I work with a lot of union folks and can say without a doubt this is complete garbage. Are there slackers in unions? Yes, but not many. Some might be at odds with their company, but the last thing they want to do is "shaft" their employer and lose their job. I say this from my own personal experience.
Much harder to fire a unionized worker than a non union one, and much harder to recognize a better than average union worker than a non union one.

Individual workers should be evaluated on an individual basis, period and people shouldn't have to join a union or pay union dues in order to work somewhere. That's what right to work does
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Old 03-12-2015, 05:49 PM
 
12,022 posts, read 12,656,919 times
Reputation: 5981
Quote:
Originally Posted by macrodome2 View Post
That's exactly what employers want you to think. I would have been right there with you 30 years ago, but I watched as the IT industry was decimated in late 1980's and 1990's. There were no unions. Companies were crying to Congress they couldn't get qualified workers. The key to that sentence was it was never finished- "They couldn't get qualified workers, at the rate they wanted to pay." So what did Congress do- up the H1B visa count.

Now you could get a cheap foreign worker who wanted to come to the US and didn't mind bunking 10 to an apartment and getting on a plane and going where ever they told him to go. Meanwhile the US worker was training his foreign replacement. People who have families can't bunk 10 to an apartment and work in different cities indefinitely. Would a union have stopped that- yeah! I find it interesting that this never would have happened in Germany as their work laws stipulate the job has to go (or stay) with a German citizen before they can put foreigners in there. And their economy is doing fine.

One last thought- the immigrants the people in this country should have been up in arms about aren't the farm workers- it was the high skilled, college educated jobs in the IT industry that flew out the door at the end of the last century. Those were jobs that supported the middle class.

So before we go wawa, poor business, no jobs, it's the inaction by our bought and paid for Congress and the business greed that has put the country in this position. There is no reason businesses can't be made to tow the line if they want to do business in this country.
Afaik, IT is doing fine now for decent paying jobs, even in FL
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 14,598,329 times
Reputation: 6053
U said it. "At the rate they wanted to pay". IT was there b/4 the 80's. Then every kid who could make a Commodore 64 print the same sentence indefinetly, wanted to be in IT. Suddenly a stable field of employment became a hot bed of people who knew little to be paid the same as those who actually knew what they were doing. Those young folks buried themselves in demands that could not be met at that time.

Yes, those jobs went overseas where a guy in India would do the same job for 1/2 the rate. Now who's fault was that?

Business be made to tow the line? Where do you think you are? France?



Quote:
Originally Posted by macrodome2 View Post
That's exactly what employers want you to think. I would have been right there with you 30 years ago, but I watched as the IT industry was decimated in late 1980's and 1990's. There were no unions. Companies were crying to Congress they couldn't get qualified workers. The key to that sentence was it was never finished- "They couldn't get qualified workers, at the rate they wanted to pay." So what did Congress do- up the H1B visa count.

Now you could get a cheap foreign worker who wanted to come to the US and didn't mind bunking 10 to an apartment and getting on a plane and going where ever they told him to go. Meanwhile the US worker was training his foreign replacement. People who have families can't bunk 10 to an apartment and work in different cities indefinitely. Would a union have stopped that- yeah! I find it interesting that this never would have happened in Germany as their work laws stipulate the job has to go (or stay) with a German citizen before they can put foreigners in there. And their economy is doing fine.

One last thought- the immigrants the people in this country should have been up in arms about aren't the farm workers- it was the high skilled, college educated jobs in the IT industry that flew out the door at the end of the last century. Those were jobs that supported the middle class.

So before we go wawa, poor business, no jobs, it's the inaction by our bought and paid for Congress and the business greed that has put the country in this position. There is no reason businesses can't be made to tow the line if they want to do business in this country.
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:14 PM
 
2,375 posts, read 2,674,447 times
Reputation: 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
U said it. "At the rate they wanted to pay". IT was there b/4 the 80's. Then every kid who could make a Commodore 64 print the same sentence indefinetly, wanted to be in IT. Suddenly a stable field of employment became a hot bed of people who knew little to be paid the same as those who actually knew what they were doing. Those young folks buried themselves in demands that could not be met at that time.

Yes, those jobs went overseas where a guy in India would do the same job for 1/2 the rate. Now who's fault was that?

Business be made to tow the line? Where do you think you are? France?
I've had my own business for 25 years and I feel there is a moral responsibility to pay people what they are worth and be a responsible corporate citizen. I could have made a lot more for myself and paid the people less and not given benefits- but I've been able to retire early and I can sleep well at night. Would a little more of France or Germany be such a bad thing?
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Old 03-12-2015, 10:55 PM
 
2,644 posts, read 2,210,269 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
If there was no business there would be no jobs at all. Why is it that people who perform their work tasks better than a co worker in a right to work state earn more than a poor performer?? Those who complain about the fact that they cant join a union, be a slacker and still make the same wage as the better worker. That thinking causes everybody in a union job to slack off and gives the employer the inability to provide a superior product or service. Union people figure they may as well slack off as much as the other guy so that the employer get the shaft.
Clearly you know nothing about unions or working for one. But that is not atypical to the average American. The average American has been sold the anti-union lie for decades while whole industries have been decimated. We've been told for years getting rid of unions would increase manufacturing and with the exception of a couple of jobs coming back, it has mostly been a huge net loss for America. Just like we were told Free trade would be good for us. And just like we were told tax cuts would balance budgets and just like we were told a high minimum wage would ruin the country. These were all bulls*it policies created by businesses, sold to us with promises of a better economy yet none of them ever worked. Right to work laws are written by businesses for the benefit of businesses. That is it. You are like every other American in that you are so pro business that your okay with exploiting workers.

In Sweden, 90% of the workforce either belongs to a Union or has a collective bargaining agreement yet they are more productive than American workers and Sweden's economy is more innovative and competitive than ours. In Germany, auto workers make twice what the average American auto worker makes yet Germany sells more cars than the US. GM and Ford operate Union factories in Canada more than they do in the US mostly to get around health care costs. Are there corrupt Unions? Yes and they should be dealt with. But right to work exists solely to damage unions and take away employees collective rights which are guaranteed to them by the constitution (not that that means anything because lets face it, America never was good at following the constitution anyway)

I know my post wont mean anything because you have your beliefs and you'll probably scoff this whole thing off as just some whiny lazy liberal looking for a hand out. Which is unfortunate because its people like you who are making this country a worse place because you are so rigid in your beliefs that you refuse to concede when you may be wrong or when something that works goes against your beliefs. Being pro-union dosent have to make you a liberal, lazy, or communist or whatever soudbyte you use to explain away your ignorance.

Take a look at the list below of the most innovative economies in the world:

Here’s a look at the top 10 list, with the previous year’s ranking in parenthesis.

Switzerland (No. 1 in 2013)
United Kingdom (3)
Sweden (2)
Finland (6)
Netherlands (4)
United States of America (5)
Singapore (8)
Denmark (9)
Luxembourg (12)
Hong Kong (China) (7)

Now tell me why are countries with a socialist safety net, higher income tax, stronger unionization and regulations higher up than the US? Maybe its because investing in your people is far better for our country than throwing them to wolves of the free market.
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Old 03-13-2015, 04:25 AM
 
12,022 posts, read 12,656,919 times
Reputation: 5981
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkm370 View Post
Clearly you know nothing about unions or working for one. But that is not atypical to the average American. The average American has been sold the anti-union lie for decades while whole industries have been decimated. We've been told for years getting rid of unions would increase manufacturing and with the exception of a couple of jobs coming back, it has mostly been a huge net loss for America. Just like we were told Free trade would be good for us. And just like we were told tax cuts would balance budgets and just like we were told a high minimum wage would ruin the country. These were all bulls*it policies created by businesses, sold to us with promises of a better economy yet none of them ever worked. Right to work laws are written by businesses for the benefit of businesses. That is it. You are like every other American in that you are so pro business that your okay with exploiting workers.

In Sweden, 90% of the workforce either belongs to a Union or has a collective bargaining agreement yet they are more productive than American workers and Sweden's economy is more innovative and competitive than ours. In Germany, auto workers make twice what the average American auto worker makes yet Germany sells more cars than the US. GM and Ford operate Union factories in Canada more than they do in the US mostly to get around health care costs. Are there corrupt Unions? Yes and they should be dealt with. But right to work exists solely to damage unions and take away employees collective rights which are guaranteed to them by the constitution (not that that means anything because lets face it, America never was good at following the constitution anyway)

I know my post wont mean anything because you have your beliefs and you'll probably scoff this whole thing off as just some whiny lazy liberal looking for a hand out. Which is unfortunate because its people like you who are making this country a worse place because you are so rigid in your beliefs that you refuse to concede when you may be wrong or when something that works goes against your beliefs. Being pro-union dosent have to make you a liberal, lazy, or communist or whatever soudbyte you use to explain away your ignorance.

Take a look at the list below of the most innovative economies in the world:

Here’s a look at the top 10 list, with the previous year’s ranking in parenthesis.

Switzerland (No. 1 in 2013)
United Kingdom (3)
Sweden (2)
Finland (6)
Netherlands (4)
United States of America (5)
Singapore (8)
Denmark (9)
Luxembourg (12)
Hong Kong (China) (7)

Now tell me why are countries with a socialist safety net, higher income tax, stronger unionization and regulations higher up than the US? Maybe its because investing in your people is far better for our country than throwing them to wolves of the free market.
For every Sweden, there's a Detroit, or a Greece or Italy. What do you think helped bring California cities like vallejo and San Bernardino to bankruptcy court?

You're willing to overlook the transgressions of the uaw in helping to lead the big 3 to their knees thanks to absurd programs like the jobs bank and the ability to collect pension and healthcare for life after working 30 years (age 18 to 48)?

What Explains GM's Problems With The UAW? - Forbes

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...emplate=mobile

What about now with the uaw taking a page out of teachers unions playbook and letting the younger workers get half the wages of "veterans"for doing the same work. Tenure has its perks. Maybe ask those workers how they feel about paying their union dues.

UAW-Automakers Contract: Tier 2 Workers Are Hot Issue - Bloomberg Business

Even Sergio Marchionne, the Canadian/Italian agrees what the uaw has done is offensive.

Don't want to blame globalization and robots for taking away lower level jobs?

Bill Gates: Bots Are Taking Away Jobs - Business Insider

McDonald’s Counters The Minimum Wage Hike To $15 By Flirting With Automation

At the end of the day, the market has a certain level it can sustain for unskilled wages, period. You may think I'm just a heartless free market conservative and you probably won't even click on the links above, but maybe you'll understand why things have unfolded the way they have
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 14,598,329 times
Reputation: 6053
You have been brainwashed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkm370 View Post
Clearly you know nothing about unions or working for one. But that is not atypical to the average American. The average American has been sold the anti-union lie for decades while whole industries have been decimated. We've been told for years getting rid of unions would increase manufacturing and with the exception of a couple of jobs coming back, it has mostly been a huge net loss for America. Just like we were told Free trade would be good for us. And just like we were told tax cuts would balance budgets and just like we were told a high minimum wage would ruin the country. These were all bulls*it policies created by businesses, sold to us with promises of a better economy yet none of them ever worked. Right to work laws are written by businesses for the benefit of businesses. That is it. You are like every other American in that you are so pro business that your okay with exploiting workers.

In Sweden, 90% of the workforce either belongs to a Union or has a collective bargaining agreement yet they are more productive than American workers and Sweden's economy is more innovative and competitive than ours. In Germany, auto workers make twice what the average American auto worker makes yet Germany sells more cars than the US. GM and Ford operate Union factories in Canada more than they do in the US mostly to get around health care costs. Are there corrupt Unions? Yes and they should be dealt with. But right to work exists solely to damage unions and take away employees collective rights which are guaranteed to them by the constitution (not that that means anything because lets face it, America never was good at following the constitution anyway)

I know my post wont mean anything because you have your beliefs and you'll probably scoff this whole thing off as just some whiny lazy liberal looking for a hand out. Which is unfortunate because its people like you who are making this country a worse place because you are so rigid in your beliefs that you refuse to concede when you may be wrong or when something that works goes against your beliefs. Being pro-union dosent have to make you a liberal, lazy, or communist or whatever soudbyte you use to explain away your ignorance.

Take a look at the list below of the most innovative economies in the world:

Here’s a look at the top 10 list, with the previous year’s ranking in parenthesis.

Switzerland (No. 1 in 2013)
United Kingdom (3)
Sweden (2)
Finland (6)
Netherlands (4)
United States of America (5)
Singapore (8)
Denmark (9)
Luxembourg (12)
Hong Kong (China) (7)

Now tell me why are countries with a socialist safety net, higher income tax, stronger unionization and regulations higher up than the US? Maybe its because investing in your people is far better for our country than throwing them to wolves of the free market.
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:57 AM
 
5,851 posts, read 4,178,112 times
Reputation: 3324
I think it's a complex issue, I worked with union workers and their rules can be ridiculous and certainly be exploitative towards the employer, having said that the idea that businesses are going to do the right thing because its the right thing it's just as absurd. Ibdint understand how legislators managed to tie two different things togheter, the idea that you are free to work anywhere even in union shops and even if you personally don't want to join said union is one thing, the fact that they can fire you without recourse is another thing completely.
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Old 03-13-2015, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 14,598,329 times
Reputation: 6053
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUNNDFRNT View Post
I think it's a complex issue, I worked with union workers and their rules can be ridiculous and certainly be exploitative towards the employer, having said that the idea that businesses are going to do the right thing because its the right thing it's just as absurd. Ibdint understand how legislators managed to tie two different things togheter, the idea that you are free to work anywhere even in union shops and even if you personally don't want to join said union is one thing, the fact that they can fire you without recourse is another thing completely.
People are not usually terminated from their employment unless they have acted in a manner that is detrimental to the employer or the business they are employed in. A worker who shows up for work on time and meets the standards of performance is not usually a worker who winds up on the unemployment line.

I have seen union workers who stop work an hour before their shift ending only part of which is granted by their contract, i.e. clean up time transportation time or other ridiculous concessions granted by contract.
ive seen union workers punch in and simply disappear for most of the day and management cant confront these workers directly, but must go through the shop steward usually with a written complaint. I have seen union workers refuse to do anything that is not in their contract or should be provided by another union. That would encompass things like workers being prevented from reaching their assigned job site because the guy who's job it is to push the buttons on the elevator was not there because of a doctor's appointment, being on a lengthy bathroom break or any one of dozens of reasons. A bunch of carpenters entering that elevator and pushing a button would be written up by their union or the other for doing so. I have personally had that experience when a delivery for a telecommunications terminal arrived at the loading dock and it sat there for 3 days because one union member or another was not present to give the delivery guy the required assistance in getting the crate off the truck and onto the loading dock or the elevator operator not being available at the same time the loading dock worker. Two other guys and myself grabbed a pallet jack and were moving the crate when a guy comes over and insists that we stop since we were not union members in the Stevedores union. It cost my company several thousand dollars due to the delay.

Unions had their purpose back in the day before labor laws, before minimum wage, before health care was offered as part of a compensation package, when employees were forced to work 10, 12, 16 hours a day at the same hourly rate they would get if they worked 8 hours.

Unions have put a large dent in a company's ability to turn out a good product while keeping the cost of their products from being purchased.
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