[Lakeland Yankee]

Originally Posted by southernnaturelover

Oh bullcrap!

I worked for my last employer for 11 years and I never joined the union, never needed it. I used to hear the "you're ridin our coat tails" argument all the time from older union members despite the fact that the last major pay raise was VOLUNTARY on the company's behalf and was not negotiated by the union. There were several times when I could have been fired for missing too many days, but the company worked with me and allowed me to stay because I was a good worker. IMO the only ones who benefited from the union were the slackers who wanted to stand around and talk all day. If anyone was "ridin coat tails" it was the lazy ass union members.

I hope you at least thanked those older union members for all of their brave sacrifices that allowed you and others to enjoy higher pay, safer working conditions, better benefits, etc etc. You didn't need the union because you were already protected by it; by law they would have had to defend you even though you contributed nothing to them. This is why Right to work (for less) laws are unfair.

I agree some Union members are lazy but the same is true with some Non-union members. Union members can still be fired if they don't do their jobs, they just can't be fired because some supervisor didn't like their haircut, color of skin, personality, etc etc.

Why are people who are brought up in Right to work (for less) states so against Unions?

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by Lakeland Yankee

I hope you at least thanked those older union members for all of their brave sacrifices that allowed you and others to enjoy higher pay, safer working conditions, better benefits, etc etc.

Yeah I am sure OSHA has nothing to do with that.

You didn't need the union because you were already protected by it; by law they would have had to defend you even though you contributed nothing to them. This is why Right to work (for less) laws are unfair.

Nothing is unfair except being forced to join a group and pay dues as a condition of working in a certain job.

Why are people who are brought up in Right to work (for less) states so against Unions?

Probably because they are happy with their manufacturing jobs and don't want their jobs to follow the path of what happened in heavily unionized states like MI and OH.

Non-union manufacturing jobs continue to spouted up all over the right-to-work south, while the rust belt dies off with each passing day. That's why Boeing decided to put its newest plant in SC instead of Seattle, WA, where it was originally based. Just look at all of the new plants in the past 10-20 years (GA - Kia, AL - Mercedes Benz, SC - BMW, Boeing, KY - Toyota, Honda etc.). In many cases, these non-union auto workers earn very similar wages to their UAW counterparts in the north and midwest.

Time and time again, these non-unionized workforces always vote AGAINST forming a union. In south carolina, the boeing workers voted to de-certify their union.

[Retiredcoach]

Florida is in some pretty dire financial straits right now, and in what might appear to be a real paradox to some, Florida will need the monies derived from union members and former union members to rejuvenate the state economy. Who else will have enough money to "bail out" the dismal real estate marketplace, that encompasses the state and is the lifeblood of state economic health? Those union workers will retire from jobs that provided them with a livable wage, a secure and safe workplace, pensions, and health benefits that have allowed them to stay healthy to retirement.

Westinghouse is in the final stages of building a multi-million dollar industrial complex in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. It promises thousands of new union jobs of educated and trained employees with livable wages and benefits. This corporation did not relocate this base of operations to Florida, despite the ill-conceived value of being a "right to work" state" (cheaper labor costs??). Pittsburgh is the beneficiary of a corporation that is willing to work with its unions to expand and grow, even in a national economy that is hurting. The union members will make enough earnings to maybe retire to Florida one day, or to a place that offers a better standard of living to its state's workers.... maybe New York, the greatest city in the world.

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by Retiredcoach

The union members will make enough earnings to maybe retire to Florida one day, or to a place that offers a better standard of living to its state's workers.... maybe New York, the greatest city in the world.

Good luck surviving in NY, one of the highest-taxed states in the country. The only people who get a break are the unionized public state workers who don't pay state income tax on their pensions and get 3-4% COLAs every year, even during recessions like this. Everyone else pays income tax to support those workers, along with paying some of the highest sales, property and gas taxes in the country. Gas is at least 30-40 cents more a gallon there. The sales tax is 2-3% higher on average, and the income tax can be anywhere from 5-9% depending on your income. Property taxes in upstate NY can work out to be nearly 3% of the property's value EVERY year.

[Retiredcoach]

Originally Posted by chopchop0

Good luck surviving in NY, one of the highest-taxed states in the country. The only people who get a break are the unionized public state workers who don't pay state income tax on their pensions and get 3-4% COLAs every year, even during recessions like this. Everyone else pays income tax to support those workers, along with paying some of the highest sales, property and gas taxes in the country. Gas is at least 30-40 cents more a gallon there. The sales tax is 2-3% higher on average, and the income tax can be anywhere from 5-9% depending on your income. Property taxes in upstate NY can work out to be nearly 3% of the property's value EVERY year.

And yet, with the high taxes, a stronger union presence, and relatively higher labor costs, the state of New York has a lower unemployment rate than Florida by an astounding 3.4% points. This suggests to me that a much higher quality of life (and a subsequent higher standard of living) is probably more readily available in New York. It makes me wonder if the citizens of New York would uniformly decide that Florida is not the location for their retirements and vacations, would Florida be able to survive?

[faithfulFrank]

Well, I think this thread could be a case study in a Psychology class.....many varied opinions, some wise, some foolish.

Statements like "No one has ever gotten fired for no reason". Right. It happens more often then we know.

I have seen dedicated workers with years of good faithful service get within weeks of retirement, just to be fired so benefits would not be paid. I've seen good employees have a family member get sick, then get fired because of that sickness.

There are extremes on both sides. But who wins when businesses can pay a sub-standard wage? Those poor folks just go apply for gov't assistance, then everyone pays........is that right? If you think so then there are a few failing or failed communist countries who would love to have you as a citizen.

Businesses deserve to make a good profit, but not on the backs of poorly paid workers who then become a burden of the state.......while the profits of those companies soar.

And as already stated, there are many examples across this country where there are companies who are non-union, but who maintain a quality workforce of dedicated employees and mane a good profit. Many of them are in the top 100 places to work in the country. They have the right balance.
Wegman's, one of the top food store chains in the country come to mind. Their turnover is low, and their stores look great. Pride shows everywhere. Everyone is happy.

I have had both union and non-union jobs in my life. Currently I am a union paid full time Professional firefighter. We are not lazy, and at times we earn our whole paycheck in 5 minutes. If we screw up, someone could die. If a union worker at least here deserves to be fired, they will be. It will be fair and right.

FWIW, I plan on taking my hard earned union pension and spending it living down in Florida. My sincere hope is that both myself and my money will be a positive addition to my future Florida community.

Oh, for those who would be critical of my "cushy union job" (insert sarcasm), it was not given to me. Come to NY, become a high tax paying resident, take the test, pass all the physical and paramedic requirements, go to the Fire Academy, then show that you can handle the job.......

Frank

[RememberMee]

It's bad because right to work (are you kidding, you have NO such a right) is an euphemism for the right of employers to hire labor at the rate of their choice using all means necessary. If you sell your arse for living it's a bad, bad thing.

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by Retiredcoach

And yet, with the high taxes, a stronger union presence, and relatively higher labor costs, the state of New York has a lower unemployment rate than Florida by an astounding 3.4% points.

If you are going to use red herrings like UE rates to show the benefits of unionization, then why didn't you pick the utopia of California or Michigan as a comparison, both of which have a strong union presence and UE rates higher than us?

Remember, auto plants are shuttering left and right in union states, and more and more plants are opening in mexico and right-to-work states in the south.

[RememberMee]

Originally Posted by chopchop0

Remember, auto plants are shuttering left and right in union states, and more and more plants are opening in mexico and right-to-work states in the south.

So your point? More desperate slave get a job by lowering his compensation expectations, thus desperation and willingness to take any object up your arse is a good survival strategy? Guess what, there is no clearly defined wage bottom owning class will be satisfied with, you will be always overpaid as far as employers are concerned.

If you are willing to take a hard object up your arse to survive a day, guess what, it will not stop at 10 inches deep, it will be getting into you deeper, deeper and deeper until your eyes pop out. Get ready and enjoy

[southernnaturelover]

Hyundai in Alabama and Kia in Georgia are both non-union plants that pay good wages and provide excellent benefits. It's amazing how many people from MI and OH that were trying to move down here to get those jobs.