Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: Sarasota/ Bradenton - University Pkwy area
4,615 posts, read 7,537,235 times
Reputation: 6036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelassie
We've never had any issues with stucco applied over concrete block construction. As has been mentioned, I think the problem lies with stucco applied over wood frame, when waterproofing where it's needed is not applied properly.
Actually, if you don't keep the exterior coat properly sealed for cracks, you can have water intrusion thru the concrete blocks. Concrete blocks are porous.
Surfside collapse engineering investigator blocked from accessing site, building materials
Conspiracy, cover-up charges may result from the decision to hinder expert investigators, especially if conclusions are qualified as a result.
<<He said he has been asked to analyze drone footage of the site; he is not even permitted to access the rubble that has been removed and stored in a secure area. Law enforcement has said they are trying to preserve evidence.
The engineer — whose career spans decades and who previously investigated the Sept. 11 attack on the Pentagon building, as well as the Oklahoma City bombing — said he had never been denied access to a scene in the past. >>
The following paragraph infers that the investigation is being blocked because of fears that ground conditions may be a cause and, if so, this would impact the safety of other coastal high-rises even if well built.
<<“Basically, as I understand it based on emails I get, a lot of people living on the coast in this area are worried about their buildings, and there are people that have gotten them to believe that this problem is something in the ground. We don’t know if it’s a problem in the ground or not. We need to do this testing and evaluation in order to understand that,” Kilsheimer said Friday.>>
Former Surfside property manager expressed concern about the impact of massive salt water intrusion
I'm surprised that this hasn't been more publicized:
<<Theory No. 7: Seawater Weakened Structural Rebar
If the spalling had compromised structural columns, it’s possible that saltwater intrusion — which has increased in recent years owing to sea-level rise — might have seeped into the columns, rusting and weakening the steel rebar that strengthens the concrete. It was something the former building manager had expressed concern about 30 years ago, noting that he witnessed “a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the foundation … so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.” While coastal buildings are, hypothetically, engineered to withstand exposure to the corrosive effects of saltwater, conditions have changed enough in the 40 years since the building was constructed that it’s worth considering new theories for the ways structures might be compromised, says Nordenson. “Climate change is putting a lot of stress on our buildings and our infrastructure, from heat to flooding,” he says. “The initial information seems to point in the general direction toward challenging our assumptions of how durable buildings are. We have to think about how quickly things might deteriorate under these particular circumstances.” >>
Contrary to other posts in this thread, the saltwater flooding the basement garage was clearly associated with high tides, according to the former maintenance manager.
<<And yet one memory stuck with him, the amount of seawater that would make its way into the underground garage.
“Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”
The cause of the collapse will likely take months to determine, but the condo association’s attorney said after the collapse building managers discovered a large hole under the building which may have been caused by saltwater intrusion. Other experts have also suggested that whatever caused that building to fail happened at the base of the building and underneath it.
Water, particularly saltwater, is extremely corrosive, experts say, especially in older concrete which is more porous than the type of concrete used today. The saltwater attacks the pillars and foundation and when it dries, salt crystals slowly eat their way into the concrete eventually damaging the steel and rebar. As that rebar rusts, it expands, causing the concrete around it to crack and chip away. In turn that exposes more rebar, which also rusts and expands, creating a cycle that can ultimately cause the structure to fail. It can take years, or even decades for that to happen....
“I remember having some exposed rebar all the time,” Espinosa said. “They would come in, plaster it up with cement and then it would reappear in other spots. But nothing like a real big, big crack or anything like that. My biggest issue, which was it was just the water. The amount of water would come in there.”
“It was all saltwater,” he said. “It was coming from the ocean.”
>>
Is this a current issue with other Miami area coastal high rises? Is there any official investigation looking for saltwater intrusion in other high rises?
Piles would seem especially vulnerable to salt water intrusion if not properly protected. And the impact of salt water intrusion on the piles would be very hard to identify.
I'm surprised that this hasn't been more publicized:
<<Theory No. 7: Seawater Weakened Structural Rebar
If the spalling had compromised structural columns, it’s possible that saltwater intrusion — which has increased in recent years owing to sea-level rise — might have seeped into the columns, rusting and weakening the steel rebar that strengthens the concrete. It was something the former building manager had expressed concern about 30 years ago, noting that he witnessed “a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the foundation … so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.” While coastal buildings are, hypothetically, engineered to withstand exposure to the corrosive effects of saltwater, conditions have changed enough in the 40 years since the building was constructed that it’s worth considering new theories for the ways structures might be compromised, says Nordenson. “Climate change is putting a lot of stress on our buildings and our infrastructure, from heat to flooding,” he says. “The initial information seems to point in the general direction toward challenging our assumptions of how durable buildings are. We have to think about how quickly things might deteriorate under these particular circumstances.” >>
Contrary to other posts in this thread, the saltwater flooding the basement garage was clearly associated with high tides, according to the former maintenance manager.
<<And yet one memory stuck with him, the amount of seawater that would make its way into the underground garage.
“Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”
The cause of the collapse will likely take months to determine, but the condo association’s attorney said after the collapse building managers discovered a large hole under the building which may have been caused by saltwater intrusion. Other experts have also suggested that whatever caused that building to fail happened at the base of the building and underneath it.
Water, particularly saltwater, is extremely corrosive, experts say, especially in older concrete which is more porous than the type of concrete used today. The saltwater attacks the pillars and foundation and when it dries, salt crystals slowly eat their way into the concrete eventually damaging the steel and rebar. As that rebar rusts, it expands, causing the concrete around it to crack and chip away. In turn that exposes more rebar, which also rusts and expands, creating a cycle that can ultimately cause the structure to fail. It can take years, or even decades for that to happen....
“I remember having some exposed rebar all the time,” Espinosa said. “They would come in, plaster it up with cement and then it would reappear in other spots. But nothing like a real big, big crack or anything like that. My biggest issue, which was it was just the water. The amount of water would come in there.”
“It was all saltwater,” he said. “It was coming from the ocean.”
>>
Is this a current issue with other Miami area coastal high rises? Is there any official investigation looking for saltwater intrusion in other high rises?
Piles would seem especially vulnerable to salt water intrusion if not properly protected. And the impact of salt water intrusion on the piles would be very hard to identify.
Well with more sea level rise you can expect more of this.
That article mentions problems when stucco is applied over wood. Moisture can get behind the wood. Lots of stucco in Florida isn't over wood. The key is to know if the stucco is over concrete block or over wood.
I never had "the key" and I have no idea what my stucco is over. I only know that it is 42 years old and hasn't cracked or collapsed. I'm not worried about it.
I never had "the key" and I have no idea what my stucco is over. I only know that it is 42 years old and hasn't cracked or collapsed. I'm not worried about it.
Bang on it with a hammer and you can tell mel if it is wood or block.
Rising insurance costs may impact condo affordability, spill over to other property markets
<<And his fellow Floridians may soon be feeling the shock waves from the tragedy, as spooked insurance companies begin scrutinizing the buildings they are covering, raising rates that are already among the highest in the nation, or canceling coverage altogether....
The Surfside collapse, which killed at least 97 people, is causing new turmoil in Florida’s troubled insurance market, further jeopardizing a coastal housing economy that was already under pressure from climate change. And it adds to growing concern among economists about a new issue in the climate crisis: whether some parts of the United States are becoming too risky to insure, at least at a cost that most people can afford....
And it is not just private insurers: In April, the federal government outlined changes to the heavily indebted National Flood Insurance Program that will eventually cause some people’s premiums to rise fivefold or more....
It is too soon to say whether climate change contributed to the collapse of the building in Surfside. But the effects of global warming, which include extreme heat and more moisture in the air, cause structures to deteriorate more quickly, according to Jesse Keenan, a professor at Tulane University who specializes in the consequences of climate change for the built environment.>>
The above article quotes an insurance executive saying writing insurance in Florida currently is not profitable and hasn't been for years.
I wonder if Champlain unit owners will recover anything close to the value of their units, as persons who died or were injured in the collapse likely will sue and claim damages. For those without loss assessment coverage, unit owners actually may have to ante up funds to settle claims. I don't know if joint and several liability will apply for the Champlain condo owners in Florida. Lawyer fees likely will consume big hunk of any insurance settlements.
On top of Surfside, a major hurricane strike in a heavily developed area in Florida could be very problematic, as warned about by financial expert Spencer Glendon a couple years ago.
<<And his fellow Floridians may soon be feeling the shock waves from the tragedy, as spooked insurance companies begin scrutinizing the buildings they are covering, raising rates that are already among the highest in the nation, or canceling coverage altogether....
The Surfside collapse, which killed at least 97 people, is causing new turmoil in Florida’s troubled insurance market, further jeopardizing a coastal housing economy that was already under pressure from climate change. And it adds to growing concern among economists about a new issue in the climate crisis: whether some parts of the United States are becoming too risky to insure, at least at a cost that most people can afford....
And it is not just private insurers: In April, the federal government outlined changes to the heavily indebted National Flood Insurance Program that will eventually cause some people’s premiums to rise fivefold or more....
It is too soon to say whether climate change contributed to the collapse of the building in Surfside. But the effects of global warming, which include extreme heat and more moisture in the air, cause structures to deteriorate more quickly, according to Jesse Keenan, a professor at Tulane University who specializes in the consequences of climate change for the built environment.>>
The above article quotes an insurance executive saying writing insurance in Florida currently is not profitable and hasn't been for years.
I wonder if Champlain unit owners will recover anything close to the value of their units, as persons who died or were injured in the collapse likely will sue and claim damages. For those without loss assessment coverage, unit owners actually may have to ante up funds to settle claims. I don't know if joint and several liability will apply for the Champlain condo owners in Florida. Lawyer fees likely will consume big hunk of any insurance settlements.
On top of Surfside, a major hurricane strike in a heavily developed area in Florida could be very problematic, as warned about by financial expert Spencer Glendon a couple years ago.
Imagine if Irma didn't crash over Cuba and hit lets say around Key largo as a 150mph large storm and moved up the spine of FL putting SEFL under the strongest winds. Or if Dorian had hit Broward County as a 180mph slow moving storm.
A large strong cat4 or cat5 into SOutheast FL would wreck the FL economy in many ways.
I think worse case is a large strong cat4 or cat5 the size of a Katrina or Irma hitting Homestead putting all of Dade County in the worst winds and then exiting around Everglades city and turning north with a landfall around Ceder Key as a cat4 still and bringing a heavy surge and wind event to Tampa with major hurricane winds on up most of the coast. Tampa metro and Dade metro both taken out.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Surfside collapse engineering investigator blocked from accessing site, building materials
