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"See My Blog Entries for my Top 500 Most Important USA Cities"
(set 4 days ago)
Location: Harrisburg, PA
1,051 posts, read 975,507 times
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HeartofFlorida- great analysis, repped. When I get off work I'll have to read it in more detail.
I agree with your ranking. Though, I still see potential shakeup among Palm Bay / Sarasota / Ft. Myers. I think my list is the same as yours only with Fort Myers and Palm Bay flopped.
6. Fort Myers
7. Sarasota
8. Palm Bay
9. Daytona
10. Lakeland
11. Pensacola
12. Tallahassee
13. Naples (small but very wealthy)
14. Port St. Lucie
15. Gainesville
Tallahassee would only rank so high (as I initially suggested) if you were going by city proper (which we are not for purposes of this thread), and greatly weighting state political influence and name recognition.
Demographics (population size), economics/GDP, logistics greatly favor the list as you present it.
viewsonic1- Port St. Lucie is a mid-sized urban area with a population of 376,047. Also Melbourne is included with Palm Bay. They are only 4 miles apart after all.
Panama City is likely too small an urban area, it would be a runner-up but to the list along with Destin, Ocala, and Key West.
1insider - Cape Canaveral is closest to Palm Bay than any other urban area, correct?
General queetions:
Should Lakeland include Winter Haven in its urban area?
Should Daytona include Deltona in its urban area?
Should Sarasota include North Port in its urban area?
Cape Canaveral is closest to Palm Bay than any other urban area, correct?
I see Brevard County as being split between 3 dominant regions. South (Melbourne/Palm Bay), Central (Cocoa/Cocoa Beach/Cape Canaveral), and North (Titusville). Whether Central Brevard is more oriented toward Melbourne or Titusville, I can't say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g500
Should Lakeland include Winter Haven in its urban area?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g500
Should Daytona include Deltona in its urban area?
I wouldn't. Deltona is much more oriented toward/connected with Sanford and Orlando than it is to Daytona.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g500
Should Sarasota include North Port in its urban area?
No. If you do that, then you might as well include Palm Coast under Daytona as well.
I actually prefer the inland college towns, Gainesville and Tallahassee, than the coastal places of Fort Myers and Daytona. FM and DYT dont it much for me, Gainesville and Tally feel busier.
I actually prefer the inland college towns, Gainesville and Tallahassee, than the coastal places of Fort Myers and Daytona. FM and DYT dont it much for me, Gainesville and Tally feel busier.
I agree. In just comparing the Downtown's of Gainesville & Tallahassee with Daytona & Fort Myers, it's pretty easy to tell which are more important. Fort Myers in particular has a pretty pathetic excuse for one, especially considering the size of the Metro.
I actually prefer the inland college towns, Gainesville and Tallahassee, than the coastal places of Fort Myers and Daytona. FM and DYT dont it much for me, Gainesville and Tally feel busier.
Sarasota has a pretty good downtown. It’s bigger than most people would expect for a city that size.
Assuming the Top 5 Most Influential Florida Urban Areas are Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, and West Palm Beach (Palm Beach County) - my own slight variation of the established urban area definition for Miami...
How would you rank the following/remaining Florida urban areas by overall influence (economic, historical, cultural, logistical, political, social)?
Honestly, I have given up trying to rank these urban areas by influence. I need your input. I guess Naples, Lakeland, Port St. Lucie, and Gainesville could be contenders too.
Here is one example of a ranking:
#6 Fort Myers
#7 Sarasota
#8 Palm Bay
#9 Tallahassee
#10 Daytona Beach
#11 Pensacola
Idk. Tallahassee is a major wildcard being the state capital, I have no idea how to rank it.
Feel free to include a listing of as many urban areas as you would like.
Maybe urban area definition is the problem as it does not work so well for Florida...?
A few thoughts:
1. HeartofFlorida really did the Lord's work for us in gathering and comparing all that data. That is an incredible post, one I would rep, if it would let me but unfortunately it says that I must "spread some around".
2. So, I read this somewhere, but as I understand it, Urban Area is defined as basically, everything relatively contiguous to the city center itself that has a population of at least 1K PSQM. I'd say it's maybe one of the most firmly defined measurement sources, and so it's not really a subjective sort of distinction that can be made. I'm not sure if the Census Bureau consistently checks and rechecks this measurement, but that was what I had heard about as a baseline.
3. I would almost certainly include West Palm Beach with Miami, because, honestly, even though the consensus on what it is is less consistent at times, I honestly prefer the use of CSA, to really get the whole, wide picture of a region. Not sure how it is tabulated, maybe commute patterns. To me, I would also include SRQ as part of Greater Tampa Bay as it's identity, but then, that's just me.
Now to the rankings. Without directly looking at HeartofFlorida's post, which clearly involved much more research, and just thinking about it anecdotally with the ones I have left:
1/5. Greater Melbourne (again, this includes Cocoa, and Palm Bay, the primary city, but again to me one that is more suburban in nature, Titusville, etc.). So, this is slightly different reasoning from the others... and goes beyond GDP, Airport, Cruise services, etc. NASA is the big thing here. If it weren't present or off the map, the world, not just the US today, would be dramatically, unrecognizably different. This isn't how I'd normally rank these, but again I'm taking a different approach, and this is anecdotal/for fun. If doing it more based off population, economic numbers, Palm Bay/Melbourne might be dropped at least 1-2 spots.
2/6. Greater Fort Myers (this includes Naples and Cape Coral) (the downtown has actually improved recently and is quite human-scaled and historic compared to the 9-5 nature of some others. Also, I've never really understood why Cape Coral is mentioned first there, and North Port for Sarasota. I mean, yeah, I get why, because those city limits are larger than those of Fort Myers and Sarasota, but yet Fort Myers and Sarasota are still very clearly the hubs of economic, political, commercial activity for their areas, whereas North Port and Cape Coral are literally a picture in the dictionary next to bedroom communities. This area would certainly come 5th on Population, and Perhaps only contend with Sarasota as an MSA on Metropolitan GDP. At this point, Fort Myers at the metro level is larger than Buffalo, and is approaching Memphis. That is pretty significant IMO. Also significant is the link that it is as a city right on the edge of the Everglades across from Miami, and as a continued population point between Tampa and Miami. There are other things, but that's my reasoning.
3/7. Greater Tallahassee. While this metro prob ranks behind some of the other FL metros on economic and other indicators. Political power is the keyword here, esp. in what is a harbinger political state, the 3rd largest in the country. This area has been a defining one, from Andrew Jackson to LeRoy Collins to now with DeSantis, it has been defining things in Florida and beyond. Florida State and FAMU are significant also.
4/8. Lakeland: I guess this one, depending on how you define it could also be considered a part of the Orlando CSA (is it, now?) It's a significant metro area in the center of the state. More than that though, the first thought that comes to mind for me here is the state's highest-ranked company in the Fortune 500 Rankings: Publix. I think that it could definitely be argued that Florida and its citizens lives would look quite a bit different if Publix weren't present. Also, Legoland could be considered within the Lakeland-Winter Haven Metro (Urban?) area, is a major regional theme park.
5/9. Pensacola: I think how isolated a place is can relate to it's overall power to, as it's one of two significant metro areas in the Panhandle. It is a significant history, but in the present tense, being home to Naval Aviation, the Blue Angels, and the general military presence that is visible there, is more than enough IMO to help it crack the Top 10. Others familiar with Pensacola can probably speak better to it, but I feel this one fits well here, and I would think, has some potential for growth and competitiveness with New Orleans, as it's climate change issues become more adverse in coming decades (not that Pensacola won't face that either, but they won't be as severe).
6/10. Gainesville: Rounding out my Top 10. FWIW, Daytona Beach is frequently grouped with Orlando, it may have been here (not definitely, but I see it as related or within the sphere of influence). I know this isn't exactly how you hoped to define these cities (you favor more urban area as measurement, so I hope you aren't disappointed. I considered Key West, even though it is micropolitan. I considered Clewiston (yes, seriously) as the home of the US Sugar industry. I considered The Villages on sheer distinctiveness, and I considered Greater Panama City. However, I came back to Gainesville, because to me, if we are thinking about recognizability, Gainesville almost certainly would come out ahead of each of these. It doesn't compare terribly on population indicators, and has a significant creative class per capita. It is one of the most eco friendly metro areas in the state and in the American south. But from a power standpoint, it has what at this point (even as a UCF fan, I will admit this) the most recognizable athletics brand with the largest following in the state and nationally, and a Top 30 national university, and the various benefits/exports that provides to the rest of the state and country.
So, there ya have it. HeartOfFlorida did the data take, mine of course looks a little different. Great idea for a thread : )
1. HeartofFlorida really did the Lord's work for us in gathering and comparing all that data. That is an incredible post, one I would rep, if it would let me but unfortunately it says that I must "spread some around".
2. So, I read this somewhere, but as I understand it, Urban Area is defined as basically, everything relatively contiguous to the city center itself that has a population of at least 1K PSQM. I'd say it's maybe one of the most firmly defined measurement sources, and so it's not really a subjective sort of distinction that can be made. I'm not sure if the Census Bureau consistently checks and rechecks this measurement, but that was what I had heard about as a baseline.
3. I would almost certainly include West Palm Beach with Miami, because, honestly, even though the consensus on what it is is less consistent at times, I honestly prefer the use of CSA, to really get the whole, wide picture of a region. Not sure how it is tabulated, maybe commute patterns. To me, I would also include SRQ as part of Greater Tampa Bay as it's identity, but then, that's just me.
Now to the rankings. Without directly looking at HeartofFlorida's post, which clearly involved much more research, and just thinking about it anecdotally with the ones I have left:
1/5. Greater Melbourne (again, this includes Cocoa, and Palm Bay, the primary city, but again to me one that is more suburban in nature, Titusville, etc.). So, this is slightly different reasoning from the others... and goes beyond GDP, Airport, Cruise services, etc. NASA is the big thing here. If it weren't present or off the map, the world, not just the US today, would be dramatically, unrecognizably different. This isn't how I'd normally rank these, but again I'm taking a different approach, and this is anecdotal/for fun. If doing it more based off population, economic numbers, Palm Bay/Melbourne might be dropped at least 1-2 spots.
2/6. Greater Fort Myers (this includes Naples and Cape Coral) (the downtown has actually improved recently and is quite human-scaled and historic compared to the 9-5 nature of some others. Also, I've never really understood why Cape Coral is mentioned first there, and North Port for Sarasota. I mean, yeah, I get why, because those city limits are larger than those of Fort Myers and Sarasota, but yet Fort Myers and Sarasota are still very clearly the hubs of economic, political, commercial activity for their areas, whereas North Port and Cape Coral are literally a picture in the dictionary next to bedroom communities. This area would certainly come 5th on Population, and Perhaps only contend with Sarasota as an MSA on Metropolitan GDP. At this point, Fort Myers at the metro level is larger than Buffalo, and is approaching Memphis. That is pretty significant IMO. Also significant is the link that it is as a city right on the edge of the Everglades across from Miami, and as a continued population point between Tampa and Miami. There are other things, but that's my reasoning.
3/7. Greater Tallahassee. While this metro prob ranks behind some of the other FL metros on economic and other indicators. Political power is the keyword here, esp. in what is a harbinger political state, the 3rd largest in the country. This area has been a defining one, from Andrew Jackson to LeRoy Collins to now with DeSantis, it has been defining things in Florida and beyond. Florida State and FAMU are significant also.
4/8. Lakeland: I guess this one, depending on how you define it could also be considered a part of the Orlando CSA (is it, now?) It's a significant metro area in the center of the state. More than that though, the first thought that comes to mind for me here is the state's highest-ranked company in the Fortune 500 Rankings: Publix. I think that it could definitely be argued that Florida and its citizens lives would look quite a bit different if Publix weren't present. Also, Legoland could be considered within the Lakeland-Winter Haven Metro (Urban?) area, is a major regional theme park.
5/9. Pensacola: I think how isolated a place is can relate to it's overall power to, as it's one of two significant metro areas in the Panhandle. It is a significant history, but in the present tense, being home to Naval Aviation, the Blue Angels, and the general military presence that is visible there, is more than enough IMO to help it crack the Top 10. Others familiar with Pensacola can probably speak better to it, but I feel this one fits well here, and I would think, has some potential for growth and competitiveness with New Orleans, as it's climate change issues become more adverse in coming decades (not that Pensacola won't face that either, but they won't be as severe).
6/10. Gainesville: Rounding out my Top 10. FWIW, Daytona Beach is frequently grouped with Orlando, it may have been here (not definitely, but I see it as related or within the sphere of influence). I know this isn't exactly how you hoped to define these cities (you favor more urban area as measurement, so I hope you aren't disappointed. I considered Key West, even though it is micropolitan. I considered Clewiston (yes, seriously) as the home of the US Sugar industry. I considered The Villages on sheer distinctiveness, and I considered Greater Panama City. However, I came back to Gainesville, because to me, if we are thinking about recognizability, Gainesville almost certainly would come out ahead of each of these. It doesn't compare terribly on population indicators, and has a significant creative class per capita. It is one of the most eco friendly metro areas in the state and in the American south. But from a power standpoint, it has what at this point (even as a UCF fan, I will admit this) the most recognizable athletics brand with the largest following in the state and nationally, and a Top 30 national university, and the various benefits/exports that provides to the rest of the state and country.
So, there ya have it. HeartOfFlorida did the data take, mine of course looks a little different. Great idea for a thread : )
If was fun and I enjoyed putting the info together. I was an urban planner/architectural engineer in another life, lol. Since my initial post, I actually started comparing the MSAs and CSAs based on 2020 census data. Very interesting stuff. As you pointed out, Lakeland/Winter Haven is now part of Orlando. How the hell did that happen? I can only guess that it was decided that most of the population was closer to Orlando and that's the direction they took. At some point, they might as well make I-4 one large CSA and be done with it. I posted that somewhere else recently as Central Florida will eventually be connected from the Gulf to the Atlantic, then converge at I-75/Turnpike forming a triangle with the Green Swamp preserve in the middle. That’s a topic for another day.
There are so many ways to present this data and the biggest challenge I ran into was trying to be objective. That also meant being able to provide sources which removed any hint of bias. That was the hardest part. At any rate, thank you for your assessment as it’s cool to see different perspectives. You've actually given me some ideas to incorporate in my spreadsheet simply for fun. Is there any data that would like more in-depth detail on? I’m open to all suggestions as long as I can prove it, lol.
Last edited by HeartofFlorida; 09-21-2021 at 07:18 PM..
If was fun and I enjoyed putting the info together. I was an urban planner/architectural engineer in another life, lol. Since my initial post, I actually started comparing the MSAs and CSAs based on 2020 census data. Very interesting stuff. As you pointed out, Lakeland/Winter Haven is now part of Orlando. How the hell did that happen? I can only guess that it was decided that most of the population was closer to Orlando and that's the direction they took. At some point, they might as well make I-4 one large CSA and be done with it. I posted that somewhere else recently as Central Florida will eventually be connected from the Gulf to the Atlantic, then converge at I-75/Turnpike forming a triangle with the Green Swamp preserve in the middle. That’s a topic for another day.
There are so many ways to present this data and the biggest challenge I ran into was trying to be objective. That also meant being able to provide sources which removed any hint of bias. That was the hardest part. At any rate, thank you for your assessment as it’s cool to see different perspectives. You've actually given me some ideas to incorporate in my spreadsheet simply for fun. Is there any data that would like more in-depth detail on? I’m open to all suggestions as long as I can prove it, lol.
You did a great job with it! I actually am working on a dissertation right now, so I find that I respond when I can, etc., but that being said, I will think if there is anything else at some point haha.
I appreciate the variables you used that do remove that sense, as we are likely to overweigh certain things, as I did in my off the cuff post.
Urban planner, huh? That sounds very interesting. I've been in the world of education, and actually thought very seriously about transitioning over to something more related to cities. What are you doing now, if you don't mind my asking?
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