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Old 03-11-2024, 09:04 AM
 
24,396 posts, read 26,936,812 times
Reputation: 19962

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelassie View Post
I don't recall calling anyone heartless, I'll tell you I had to pull a major attitude adjustment to even read through that book without putting it down in disgust cussing about the what looked to me like coddling/enabling of the drug addicts in supplying them with their needs to continue their habits. The topic was timely and relevant to the personnel who would be using this book for continuing education credits to maintain their professional state licenses, the science and medicine was good so I stuck with it and wrote the multiple choice questions needed to make it a course. I just had a hard time with the "harm reduction" message pushed by the authors.

So as much as the authors touted the effectiveness of "harm reduction" measures, it sounds as though these needle and drug supply programs are just the opposite, enabling even worse behavior, increasing drug addiction, and more danger to the public. Somehow I'm not surprised, and I certainly believe what you're saying without having to look it up. Just wondering if the harm mitigation/reduction proponents can see this, or are they stuck on their own version of the facts. They certainly were critical in the book I mentioned of local and state governments who would not expand funding for these programs, and they advocated increases in these measures as *one of the best ways* to decrease incidence of infectious diseases in the addicted. Sounds as though that can't be true either.

Believe me, I'm on your side with this topic!
Oh ok, I see, I apologize I misinterpreted your message. I see we are on the same page haha.

Yeah, the whole argument stems at decreasing the use of shared needles thus reducing the spread of HIV/AIDS, etc. However, this comes at the risk of infecting innocent people especially children who are more likely to step or pick up a needle they come across. It also enables this behavior and creates a two-tier legal system, where if you are homeless, you are free to do whatever the F*** you want, if you have a job and get caught using or selling, you're thrown in jail for potentially a very long time. For me, I want the lives and well-being of the general public priority instead of the homeless drug addicts. Oh well, thankfully Florida is not going down the path of some of these other states.
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Old 03-11-2024, 09:09 AM
 
24,396 posts, read 26,936,812 times
Reputation: 19962
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeddy View Post
exactly. What would enforcement look like? Put them in jail? Fine them? lmao

such silliness. Sounds like something Biden would want to do.
Treat them like anyone else... it's not that difficult to comprehend. If you or I were selling meth on the sidewalk, what would happen to us? So why should a homeless person be treated any different? If a city refuses to enforce the law, it allows residents and business owners to file civil lawsuits against local governments. Money is the way to force change.
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Old 03-11-2024, 09:45 AM
 
18,430 posts, read 8,262,327 times
Reputation: 13761
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
creates a two-tier legal system, where if you are homeless, you are free to do whatever the F*** you want, if you have a job and get caught using or selling, you're thrown in jail for potentially a very long time.
100% spot on.....
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Old 03-11-2024, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,839 posts, read 26,247,208 times
Reputation: 34039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelassie View Post
I don't recall calling anyone heartless, I'll tell you I had to pull a major attitude adjustment to even read through that book without putting it down in disgust cussing about the what looked to me like coddling/enabling of the drug addicts in supplying them with their needs to continue their habits. The topic was timely and relevant to the personnel who would be using this book for continuing education credits to maintain their professional state licenses, the science and medicine was good so I stuck with it and wrote the multiple choice questions needed to make it a course. I just had a hard time with the "harm reduction" message pushed by the authors.

So as much as the authors touted the effectiveness of "harm reduction" measures, it sounds as though these needle and drug supply programs are just the opposite, enabling even worse behavior, increasing drug addiction, and more danger to the public. Somehow I'm not surprised, and I certainly believe what you're saying without having to look it up. Just wondering if the harm mitigation/reduction proponents can see this, or are they stuck on their own version of the facts. They certainly were critical in the book I mentioned of local and state governments who would not expand funding for these programs, and they advocated increases in these measures as *one of the best ways* to decrease incidence of infectious diseases in the addicted. Sounds as though that can't be true either.

Believe me, I'm on your side with this topic!
Providing "needle exchanges" does not keep people from using, but that's not the point of having them, they are proven to reduce the incidence of HIV and HCV, both of which are very expensive to treat, and they are not just a "liberal thing", Utah has had a SEP (syringe exchange program) since 2017 and they have had good results just as every other jurisdiction using SEP has. https://le.utah.gov/interim/2023/pdf/00004017.pdf
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Old 03-11-2024, 11:14 AM
 
24,396 posts, read 26,936,812 times
Reputation: 19962
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Providing "needle exchanges" does not keep people from using, but that's not the point of having them, they are proven to reduce the incidence of HIV and HCV, both of which are very expensive to treat, and they are not just a "liberal thing", Utah has had a SEP (syringe exchange program) since 2017 and they have had good results just as every other jurisdiction using SEP has. https://le.utah.gov/interim/2023/pdf/00004017.pdf
1 million syringes unaccounted for... once again, given the choice, I'd rather the addicts infect each other vs the addicts infecting the general public. I believe the law should apply to everyone.
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Old 03-11-2024, 01:23 PM
 
Location: The Bubble, Florida
3,429 posts, read 2,396,448 times
Reputation: 10039
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
Treat them like anyone else... it's not that difficult to comprehend. If you or I were selling meth on the sidewalk, what would happen to us? So why should a homeless person be treated any different? If a city refuses to enforce the law, it allows residents and business owners to file civil lawsuits against local governments. Money is the way to force change.
You are missing (or maybe ignoring) the fact that "not all homeless people are drug addicts."

The new law is basically making it illegal to be homeless, but doesn't provide any alternative. There are people who are homeless because of circumstances, rather than self-abuse. Someone whose home was destroyed by a hurricane, the insurance company didn't pay out, FEMA no longer covers the expense for them being in temporary housing, and they can't afford to start over. Or - someone who has a mental disorder, but the disorder itself made them forget to take their meds, and now they're out on the street because their mind is just so warped they don't realize that they have a home they can go to. Elderly people with dementia - same thing. Young adults whose parents abused and/or molested them, and they've left home with no prospects, no resume, no college degree or trade school certification - because being on the street was safer than being at home, in their minds. Women whose husbands controlled them, and they left right after discovering that they're pregnant, and don't know how to access resources to help them.

And yes there are addicts - of all types. There are people who had legitimate reason to use opioids - pain management following major surgery, or to get through the first few days of healing from a broken bone, but they became addicted within the first day or two of taking the drug for legitimate purposes. And now they can't stop, and it's destroyed their lives. And sure - the ones who take it for recreation and get stuck in the addiction cycle.

But you can sit on your high horse and judge ALL homeless as meth addicts, because - you've never spent a moment with homeless people. If you had, you'd be more compassionate, and less hateful.
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Old 03-11-2024, 05:14 PM
 
17,533 posts, read 39,113,698 times
Reputation: 24289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghaati View Post
You are missing (or maybe ignoring) the fact that "not all homeless people are drug addicts."

The new law is basically making it illegal to be homeless, but doesn't provide any alternative. There are people who are homeless because of circumstances, rather than self-abuse. Someone whose home was destroyed by a hurricane, the insurance company didn't pay out, FEMA no longer covers the expense for them being in temporary housing, and they can't afford to start over. Or - someone who has a mental disorder, but the disorder itself made them forget to take their meds, and now they're out on the street because their mind is just so warped they don't realize that they have a home they can go to. Elderly people with dementia - same thing. Young adults whose parents abused and/or molested them, and they've left home with no prospects, no resume, no college degree or trade school certification - because being on the street was safer than being at home, in their minds. Women whose husbands controlled them, and they left right after discovering that they're pregnant, and don't know how to access resources to help them.

And yes there are addicts - of all types. There are people who had legitimate reason to use opioids - pain management following major surgery, or to get through the first few days of healing from a broken bone, but they became addicted within the first day or two of taking the drug for legitimate purposes. And now they can't stop, and it's destroyed their lives. And sure - the ones who take it for recreation and get stuck in the addiction cycle.

But you can sit on your high horse and judge ALL homeless as meth addicts, because - you've never spent a moment with homeless people. If you had, you'd be more compassionate, and less hateful.
No, the new law is prohibiting homeless camps on public property, not making it "illegal to be homeless." Those that are homeless because of circumstances have alternatives, and those people usually seek them.

And yes, I have personal experience with the homeless; on both my husband's and my side of the family. Do you?
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Old 03-11-2024, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Free State of Florida
25,704 posts, read 12,779,845 times
Reputation: 19267
Does living in your car = homeless?

I'd say so. If you agree, I've been homeless twice.

I parked my 1970 Duster at the rest stop off I-95 because it was safe, and they had a 24 hr restroom.

I showered at the beach, & shaved & brushed my teeth at public facilities beachside...after they were unlocked each morning, but before anyone showed up.

I dont recall how I found money to eat, but I do recall stealing food a few times from the local grocery store. I'd buy a $1.00 loaf of store brand bread, & stuff a package of swiss cheese down my pants.

Being poor and homeless is awful. I was pretty good at hiding it to avoid public humiliation.
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Old 03-11-2024, 06:49 PM
 
24,396 posts, read 26,936,812 times
Reputation: 19962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghaati View Post
You are missing (or maybe ignoring) the fact that "not all homeless people are drug addicts."

The new law is basically making it illegal to be homeless, but doesn't provide any alternative. There are people who are homeless because of circumstances, rather than self-abuse. Someone whose home was destroyed by a hurricane, the insurance company didn't pay out, FEMA no longer covers the expense for them being in temporary housing, and they can't afford to start over. Or - someone who has a mental disorder, but the disorder itself made them forget to take their meds, and now they're out on the street because their mind is just so warped they don't realize that they have a home they can go to. Elderly people with dementia - same thing. Young adults whose parents abused and/or molested them, and they've left home with no prospects, no resume, no college degree or trade school certification - because being on the street was safer than being at home, in their minds. Women whose husbands controlled them, and they left right after discovering that they're pregnant, and don't know how to access resources to help them.

And yes there are addicts - of all types. There are people who had legitimate reason to use opioids - pain management following major surgery, or to get through the first few days of healing from a broken bone, but they became addicted within the first day or two of taking the drug for legitimate purposes. And now they can't stop, and it's destroyed their lives. And sure - the ones who take it for recreation and get stuck in the addiction cycle.

But you can sit on your high horse and judge ALL homeless as meth addicts, because - you've never spent a moment with homeless people. If you had, you'd be more compassionate, and less hateful.
1) I volunteered at a homeless shelter during college in San Francisco. Honestly, that's when I lost some empathy toward the issue because I saw so much of it is substance abuse and many are just rude, entitled, and mean. I'm not lumping all homeless to this. I know there are also genuine good people who want to work and contribute to society, which is why I believe the law should apply to everyone. It would open up services, shelters, funding for homeless who actually want to turn their lives around.

2) Many homeless choose NOT to go to a shelter because they don't like them. They want a private bedroom in an apartment or house but would rather be on the streets if the only option is a shelter.

3) Most relevant to this thread, local governments can designate areas for homeless camps.
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Old 03-11-2024, 08:04 PM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 475,051 times
Reputation: 1422
Imprisoning the homeless has been repeatedly shown to be ineffective at driving down the number of homeless people, and, in many cases, may actually increase the proliferation of the homeless problem instead.

Also, a smart man knows that moving your problems from your personal line of sight, does nothing to solve them.
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