Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Vegetables contain nitrAtes, not nitrItes. Some of these nitrates get converted to nitrites in the saliva and stomach, however.
As far as I know, neither nitrates nor nitrites are the suspected problem. They apparently actually do some good things in the body, including dilating blood vessels, lowering blood pressure, and other things:
Quote:
Epidemiological studies have failed to substantiate this. It has been shown that dietary nitrate undergoes enterosalivary circulation. It is recirculated in the blood, concentrated by the salivary glands, secreted in the saliva and reduced to nitrite by facultative Gram-positive anaerobes (Staphylococcus sciuri and S. intermedius) on the tongue. Salivary nitrite is swallowed into the acidic stomach where it is reduced to large quantities of NO and other oxides of N and, conceivably, also contributes to the formation of systemic S-nitrosothiols. NO and solutions of acidified nitrite, mimicking gastric conditions, have been shown to have antimicrobial activity against a wide range of organisms. In particular, acidified nitrite is bactericidal for a variety of gastrointestinal pathogens such as Yersinia and Salmonella. NO is known to have vasodilator properties and to modulate platelet function, as are S-nitrosothiols. Thus, nitrate in the diet, which determines reactive nitrogen oxide species production in the stomach (McKnight et al. 1997), is emerging as an effective host defence against gastrointestinal pathogens, as a modulator of platelet activity and possibly even of gastrointestinal motility and microcirculation. Therefore dietary nitrate may have an important therapeutic role to play, not least in the immunocompromised and in refugees who are at particular risk of contracting gastroenteritides.
I think the problem is when the nitrites get converted to nitrosamines. It is the nitrosamines that are the carcinogen, not the nitrates or nitrites. Vitamins and and anti-oxidants in vegetables such as vitamins E and C help to prevent the conversion of nitrites to nitrosamines, while cooking, especially high-temperature cooking, increases the conversion.
Quote:
Nitrates are inherently present in all plant materials, especially vegetables and forage crops, and accumulate when the plant matures in a nitrate rich environment [11]. Nitrates in drinking water are often the result of contamination of ground water by fertilizer and animal or human waste [2]. The interest in nitrate consumption is due to the subsequent conversion of nitrates to nitrites, which are of greater concern in the formation of N-nitroso compounds. The endogenous conversion of nitrate to nitrite is a significant source of exposure to nitrites; approximately 5% of ingested nitrates in food and water are converted to nitrite in the saliva [12]. Cured meats, baked goods and cereals are other notable sources of nitrite [13]. Nitrite salts are added to meats, poultry, and fish in minute quantities as a means of preservation; this has been a common practice for many centuries [14]. Humans are exposed to N-nitroso compounds from exogenous sources and through endogenous formation. Dietary sources of nitrosamines include cured meats, beer, and smoked fish; these foods may contain preformed nitrosamines as the result of cooking and/or preservation methods [14-16].
So the nitrates in vegetables and the nitrites in processed meats and beer aren't necessarily going to result in the same levels of nitrosamines in the body.
From the above link:
Quote:
Nitrosamine values from food items ranged from 0 – 0.453 μg/serving with the highest concentrations occurring in meat and dairy products. Beef, pork, lamb, or cabrito as a sandwich or main dish contains 0.324 and 0.453 μg/serving. Cottage or ricotta cheese, fish and bacon contain high levels of nitrosamines with 0.266, 0.222 and 0.219 μg/serving respectively. Alcoholic beverages also contain high levels of nitrosamines, with beer and malt beverages containing the highest amount of nitrosamines per serving at 0.531 μg and 0.301 μg respectively. Wine and liquor contain relatively little nitrosamines per serving with values of 0.019 and 0.027 μg respectively. Fruits, vegetables, sweets, and fats do not contain significant amounts of nitrosamines per serving.
The meats in the grocery store that are free of sodium nitrate usually use celery or beets instead though, which in their fairly isolated/processed form, combined with the amino acids in the meat and the cooking process, may result in the same amount of nitrosamines as sodium nitrate-cured meats.
Whether it's the nitrosamines or something else, there have been a lot of studies indicating that processed meats are worse for you than uncured meats.
Vegetables contain nitrAtes, not nitrItes. Some of these nitrates get converted to nitrites in the saliva and stomach, however.
Yes, I know the difference, my bad. Was in a bit of a rush. Point still stands.
Nitrates -> Nitrites -> Nitric Oxide
Doesn't matter where it comes from, curing meat with celery powder is no different than curing meat with saltpeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
As far as I know, neither nitrates nor nitrites are the suspected problem. They apparently actually do some good things in the body, including dilating blood vessels, lowering blood pressure, and other things:
This was solved 1000 yrs ago when people began curing meat. Of course it kills harmful bacteriea, thats the whole point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
I think the problem is when the nitrites get converted to nitrosamines. It is the nitrosamines that are the carcinogen, not the nitrates or nitrites. Vitamins and and anti-oxidants in vegetables such as vitamins E and C help to prevent the conversion of nitrites to nitrosamines, while cooking, especially high-temperature cooking, increases the conversion.
So the nitrates in vegetables and the nitrites in processed meats and beer aren't necessarily going to result in the same levels of nitrosamines in the body.
If I avoided everything labeled as a carcinogen then I don't think I would be eating much or even going outdoors. These guys can't even make up their mind if eggs, Omega-6, salt and lots of others things are good or bad for you. My thought is moderation in all things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
From the above link:
The meats in the grocery store that are free of sodium nitrate usually use celery or beets instead though, which in their fairly isolated/processed form, combined with the amino acids in the meat and the cooking process, may result in the same amount of nitrosamines as sodium nitrate-cured meats.
Whether it's the nitrosamines or something else, there have been a lot of studies indicating that processed meats are worse for you than uncured meats.
I think we can safely change that "may" to a "will".
Again, I wouldn't be surprised if in 2 or 3 years a big study is released showing that cured meats are actually better for you. Not that I would agree with that either. Point is these clowns flip flop more than Obama, so I just ignore it all. Do I think its healthy to run out and eat 6 lbs of bacon. Nope. Is it perfectly fine to eat a few slices for breakfast 3 times a week, absolutely, and its damn tasty too.
I think there is a big distinction between modern processed foods and traditionally cured foods. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the oscar mayer weiner you just scarfed down is worse for you than a more natural weiner made from whole cuts of meat and not aldulterated by additives. I think this is a problem with many foods and studies about food. Its no stretch to see that the more you process a food the more vitamins and minerals are lost and more questionable additives are put in it. I avoid all processed foods at home. I can go to someone elses house or to a restaurant and eat just fine without worrying about what I am eating because I know its relatively infrequent. By and large I only buy fresh or frozen fruits, veggies and meats. I rarely buy anything in a box or can and it makes it pretty simple. I don't buy into organics either, that label has been completely coopted and obliterated by large agri-business. I bet there isn't a nickels difference (except in a few specific products) in todays organics and their counterparts.
I would also bet that having a bowl "heart healthy" (lol) cheerios swimming in rBGH laden milk washed down with that slop they call orange juice is much worse for your health than a couple eggs and few slices of bacon.
Yes, I know the difference, my bad. Was in a bit of a rush. Point still stands.
Nitrates -> Nitrites -> Nitric Oxide
Or nitrites -> nitrosamines
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
Doesn't matter where it comes from, curing meat with celery powder is no different than curing meat with saltpeter
That's an assumption that may or may not be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
This was solved 1000 yrs ago when people began curing meat. Of course it kills harmful bacteriea, thats the whole point.
So if you find something that kills cancer cells in a petri dish, of course it's going to do the same thing in the human body? Why even test it?
You can't take two separate inputs in two separate systems and blindly assume that something is going to produce the same result in both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
If I avoided everything labeled as a carcinogen then I don't think I would be eating much or even going outdoors. These guys can't even make up their mind if eggs, Omega-6, salt and lots of others things are good or bad for you. My thought is moderation in all things.
The old "everything is considered a carcinogen nowadays" so I'll just stick my head in the sand and pretend like nothing I do makes any difference.
It's not all or nothing. You can be skeptical and examine the information critically without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
I think we can safely change that "may" to a "will".
Another assumption. There could be something in the beet or celery juice that prevents as many nitrosamines from forming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
I think there is a big distinction between modern processed foods and traditionally cured foods. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the oscar mayer weiner you just scarfed down is worse for you than a more natural weiner made from whole cuts of meat and not aldulterated by additives. I think this is a problem with many foods and studies about food. Its no stretch to see that the more you process a food the more vitamins and minerals are lost and more questionable additives are put in it. I avoid all processed foods at home. I can go to someone elses house or to a restaurant and eat just fine without worrying about what I am eating because I know its relatively infrequent. By and large I only buy fresh or frozen fruits, veggies and meats. I rarely buy anything in a box or can and it makes it pretty simple. I don't buy into organics either, that label has been completely coopted and obliterated by large agri-business. I bet there isn't a nickels difference (except in a few specific products) in todays organics and their counterparts.
I would also bet that having a bowl "heart healthy" (lol) cheerios swimming in rBGH laden milk washed down with that slop they call orange juice is much worse for your health than a couple eggs and few slices of bacon.
What's wrong with boxed, canned, processed foods? BPA, red 40, yellow 5, hydrogenated oils, rBGH, etc.?
You said you ignore what scientists say because they flip flop all the time, so what makes you think these things are bad?
You debate the science, then completely dismiss the science, then say moderation in all things, then list a bunch of things you avoid and say that Oscar Meyer wieners are worse because of additives.
I love pepperoni, salami, olives (nitrosamines are formed in curing fruits/vegetables too), giardiniera, ham, etc. But it appears that they may have some deleterious health effects.
So in the meantime I still consume these things and keep an eye on what studies say.
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 07-20-2013 at 05:03 PM..
sausage without nitrates is like bacon without pork or butter without cream, terrible idea. If you think nitrates give you cancer then buy fresh sausage. or better yet buy a decent meat grinder and make your own. Pretty easy to make fresh sausage. You can make good bologna or wiener with a decent food processor.
Like opened said. Nitrates are necessary for curing meats so they can have a longer shelf life.
I would not want to clean up after making sausage. I keep mine in the freezer and do just fine, thank you.
Fresh sausage in my local supermarket has way too much fat in it. I don't go running all over town for food shopping. I go to the largest local store and if it's not there I don't get it. Food for me is not something I like spending a lot of time on. If I want something special or that takes time, I eat out.
I don't eat butter, cream, or bacon very much at all. All are horrible for you. But, to each his own.
Last edited by goldengrain; 07-20-2013 at 09:06 PM..
Nitrites may or may not cause cancer, but I am allergic to them and they give me crashing headaches. I for one am grateful that there are nitrite-free lunchmeats and so on hitting the markets at last. Nitrites embedded in whole fresh foods, like beets, are not like the massive clouts of sodium nitrite you get in a hotdog or a slice of Spam -- they don't affect me at all, maybe because there are other elements in the beet the counteract the nitrites.
BTW there are lot od other ways to preserve meat -- plain salt does the same job when you're making ham or sausage and spares me the headache.
But, the person said that nitrites from celery are molecularly the same. So I guess they think you're getting psychosomatic headaches?
When the actual causes of cancer are found, then we will feel safe dropping the precautions we take. Until then, each person must do what he or she feels is sensible to protect himself.
No reason for ridicule here. Or for getting defensive.
You said you ignore what scientists say because they flip flop all the time, so what makes you think these things are bad?
You debate the science, then completely dismiss the science, then say moderation in all things, then list a bunch of things you avoid and say that Oscar Meyer wieners are worse because of additives.
There is a huge difference between science and a study. I don't go around changing my beliefs over any study dealing with food/health, religion, global warming or politics. They are all pushed by idealouges who are trying to push their beliefs onto everyone else. Are there some good studies out there on these topics, sure but by there are dozens of faulty ones for every good one.
Its like global warming. They told us that we where heading into an Ice Age and had a mountain of studies and "science" to back it up. Then when that didn't happen they claimed "global warming" and commisioned another batch of studies to tell us we are all gonna die because I drive a car or my cows fart or I use too much electricity. Now its becoming clear thats not really true either.
Or take salt for instance. It was the scourge of society for a few decades. Companies all churned out low sodium varieties "for your health". Now the CDC says, well actually that info is flawed and there is no harm in the amounts of salt we typically eat, and in fact there may be some benefits in having a healthy salt intake. duh.
Or butter. How many studies are there absolutely proving butter is bad and should be replaced with margine because its so much better for you. Turns out that all that hydrogented oil (processed) isn't so great after all and maybe butter isn't so bad.
Monsanto had studies showing how safe sacchrine was. They had studies showing how harmless PCBs were so they could get agent orange approved. They had studies showing how safe rBGH was. Now they are showing studies about how safe GMOs are. Are they? I dunno but I am not gonna start blindly eating them until we get a little more say so on the matter than a few studies from someone with an obvious conflict of interest.
As far as my own beliefs, its clear something is seriously wrong with our diet today. What has changed in the last 50 or 60 yrs to take us to this point. Thats pretty clear to me. Fast food. Highly processed foods. Concentrated food production shifting from local/regional/seasonal aspect to a factory model.
I am not a low carber or paleo guy but I think its obvious that the grain/legume centric diet recommended for the last 40 or 50 yrs is exactly wrong as shown by our steady decline in health. I eat just about the opposite. Mostly veggies and meat with some dairy and grains or legumes. I try to avoid all processed foods which make up most of whats available in most grocery stores. My blood pressure is great, my blood work results have improved over the last 3 yrs since I switched. I was actually borderline and on my way to being diabetic. Now I am not anywhere close to that. So its gonna take more than a study or two pushed by a special interest group to sway me.
I think the low carbers and paleo crowd go to far saying grains are poisons and you can't eat any of them.
I think the vegans go to far trying force a belief system into a diet saying how bad meat is for you when we are obviously built to eat meat.
I think the low fat crowd is probably the worst of the bunch as they are clueless about scientific facts and how lo-fat foods are gamed to be labeled such
I think the organic crowd is clueless about how the label organic has been coopted by agri-business and totally adulterated. They are also the worst about panicking over the latest study seeming to link a new chemical or compound to cancer.
I think calorie counters are clueless about basic scientific fact about human anatomy. Your body does not treat 1 calorie of sugar, oatmeal, beef or lettuce the same. Why would you?
Sure I like science but studies are better used to develop and disprove a theory not prove one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
I would not want to clean up after making sausage. I keep mine in the freezer and do just fine, thank you.
Fresh sausage in my local supermarket has way too much fat in it. I don't go running all over town for food shopping. I go to the largest local store and if it's not there I don't get it. Food for me is not something I like spending a lot of time on. If I want something special or that takes time, I eat out.
I don't eat butter, cream, or bacon very much at all. All are horrible for you. But, to each his own.
Well, each to his own. I feel sorry for you though. Butter and cream are basic foundations for about half of all western recipes. It must suck to cut that out and suffer through crappy food. I guess if you haven't ever eaten real hollandaise or bechemal based sauce then you don't really miss it.
They aren't nearly as horrible for you as about 95% of those items in that mega market you go to.
I think we shop very differently lol. I go to 2 different Asian markets, a butcher, a fish monger, a farmers market and the local grocery store every few weeks.
Any good sausage has to have at least 15 % fat at a minimum, or else its not really sausage or even suitable to be cooked like sausage.
Well, don't feel too sorry for me. I hate meat fat - just don't like the taste. Heavy sauces, too. I don't even like butter. I use olive oil quite a bit. I even like eggs fried in olive oil. You should try it, it might surprise you.
Half the population is not salt responsive and no matter what their blood pressure, more or less sodium will not affect it, so I think it's horrible that doctors just automatically tell folks to lower their salt intake.
We can only live by what we believe to be true, can't we? Some studies probably nail solutions and some may only apply to part of the population. We are not all alike.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
