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It is widely know that Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and all of South Florida has a skemmer/scammer mentality. The dishonest out number the honest by a mile. Google: Miami Scams, and read till your half dead.
I'm sure you're right about that $400k number in many parts of Broward, but the houses in my neck of the woods sell for a whole lot more than that.
Interesting info though.
I was discussing comparable houses. In fact, $400k gets you a house in highly desirable areas in Broward. You can certainly buy a house in a decent area for less than that.
The insight you gained should be that storm insurance is not a big deal, even in South Florida.
You may have to pick a specific area, a little further west, etc. You may notice that there is a lack of people complaining about insurance here. It's not the cheapest, we have hurricanes, but we all get by just fine.
I'll reiterate that people can only buy what they can afford. And if insurance is higher, this drives down home prices accordingly. Things balance out. You will be fine. Don't focus on insurance costs and simply pick the area of the State you would like to live in.
Well, here are a few considerations about homeowner's insurance in Florida. Generally the rates depend on the 1) age of the house, 2) location of the property, and 3) presence of items in the home that mitigate the potential damage of a windstorm event.
A house built prior to 2000, even if it's been updated, will cost more to insure than a newer house because of the assumptions ( not always valid, IMO) that an older property was not built to the current hurricane codes and thus is more likely to be severely damaged in a windstorm event. They will never consider an older house "hurricane hardened" as they assume new houses are, even if it has been rebuilt to current codes, but the items put in or done to strengthen the house will likely be counted in the mitigation items
and will reduce the premium rates.
The location of the property factors in its relative distance from the coast, and the population density where it's located. Our house in Miami was located east of US1 in south Miami Dade county, which was considered by the insurance industry high risk for ongoing damages by the ongoing storms their storm prediction models claimed were coming. These areas included properties east of I-95 in Miami Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties, and insurance rates there were higher than in areas west of these locations. We had had State Farm insurance ( and paid about $500/yr) on the house prior to hurricane Andrew in 1992, after the storm, State Farm dropped our windstorm coverage, and we had to get it from Citizens. State Farm, Allstate, were two of the insurance companies that ( at least for a while, not sure about now) took measures to protect their parent companies from exposure ( yet keep the premium money flowing in) by creating smaller satellite companies ( State Farm Florida, Allstate Floridian) to handle the homeowner's policies they didn't drop. Making these smaller companies also served to qualify the insurance companies for higher premium increases (approved by the state), because of the alleged low capital condition of these satellite companies. These insurance companies stopped insuring new customers in Florida altogether in 2008. I don't know if the customers grandfathered in to those companies are still insured there. But we paid a total of about $6500 annually for our homeowner's ( $2500 for homeowners and $4000 for windstorm) insurance on that house in Miami. And many of our neighbors paid much more than that, some of them got to where they had to foreclose on their properties because they couldn't afford the insurance.
Also related to the location of the property, the insurance companies consider their exposure to risk higher in densely populated areas than in areas of low density. So the rates to each homeowner are higher in an urban area than they would be in a more rural setting. So if one buys a house in Miami-Dade, Broward, or Palm Beach county, or even Hillsboro or Pinellas county, the insurance premiums will be higher than they would be if he bought the same house in say, Charlotte or DeSoto county.
Mitigation items added to the house to minimize windstorm damages also lower insurance rates. The caveat is that these items must meet current building codes to qualify for the discounts. These items include shape of the roof- hip roofs considered more wind resistance, shutters or hurricane impact resistant windows for all openings, extra bracing and hurricane straps on trusses, the age of the roof ( recent roofs being better as they must meet added windstorm codes). The presence of these items are verified by inspections and reports to the insurance companies.
So now we live in SW Florida, Charlotte County, and our homeowner's insurance, which now includes windstorm coverage, runs us about $1400 yearly. This decrease in our rates includes being a non-Citizen's policy, a new house ( completed in 2008), located in a much less densely populated area, and the presence of all the mitigation items, ie, hip roof, age of the property, hurricane impact windows, and built to current Miami-Dade hurricane codes. When the house was finished our contractor took pictures, and sent the pertinent information to the insurance company to verify this.
Well, here are a few considerations about homeowner's insurance in Florida. Generally the rates depend on the 1) age of the house, 2) location of the property, and 3) presence of items in the home that mitigate the potential damage of a windstorm event.
A house built prior to 2000, even if it's been updated, will cost more to insure than a newer house because of the assumptions ( not always valid, IMO) that an older property was not built to the current hurricane codes and thus is more likely to be severely damaged in a windstorm event. They will never consider an older house "hurricane hardened" as they assume new houses are, even if it has been rebuilt to current codes, but the items put in or done to strengthen the house will likely be counted in the mitigation items
and will reduce the premium rates.
The location of the property factors in its relative distance from the coast, and the population density where it's located. Our house in Miami was located east of US1 in south Miami Dade county, which was considered by the insurance industry high risk for ongoing damages by the ongoing storms their storm prediction models claimed were coming. These areas included properties east of I-95 in Miami Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties, and insurance rates there were higher than in areas west of these locations. We had had State Farm insurance ( and paid about $500/yr) on the house prior to hurricane Andrew in 1992, after the storm, State Farm dropped our windstorm coverage, and we had to get it from Citizens. State Farm, Allstate, were two of the insurance companies that ( at least for a while, not sure about now) took measures to protect their parent companies from exposure ( yet keep the premium money flowing in) by creating smaller satellite companies ( State Farm Florida, Allstate Floridian) to handle the homeowner's policies they didn't drop. Making these smaller companies also served to qualify the insurance companies for higher premium increases (approved by the state), because of the alleged low capital condition of these satellite companies. These insurance companies stopped insuring new customers in Florida altogether in 2008. I don't know if the customers grandfathered in to those companies are still insured there. But we paid a total of about $6500 annually for our homeowner's ( $2500 for homeowners and $4000 for windstorm) insurance on that house in Miami. And many of our neighbors paid much more than that, some of them got to where they had to foreclose on their properties because they couldn't afford the insurance.
Also related to the location of the property, the insurance companies consider their exposure to risk higher in densely populated areas than in areas of low density. So the rates to each homeowner are higher in an urban area than they would be in a more rural setting. So if one buys a house in Miami-Dade, Broward, or Palm Beach county, or even Hillsboro or Pinellas county, the insurance premiums will be higher than they would be if he bought the same house in say, Charlotte or DeSoto county.
Mitigation items added to the house to minimize windstorm damages also lower insurance rates. The caveat is that these items must meet current building codes to qualify for the discounts. These items include shape of the roof- hip roofs considered more wind resistance, shutters or hurricane impact resistant windows for all openings, extra bracing and hurricane straps on trusses, the age of the roof ( recent roofs being better as they must meet added windstorm codes). The presence of these items are verified by inspections and reports to the insurance companies.
So now we live in SW Florida, Charlotte County, and our homeowner's insurance, which now includes windstorm coverage, runs us about $1400 yearly. This decrease in our rates includes being a non-Citizen's policy, a new house ( completed in 2008), located in a much less densely populated area, and the presence of all the mitigation items, ie, hip roof, age of the property, hurricane impact windows, and built to current Miami-Dade hurricane codes. When the house was finished our contractor took pictures, and sent the pertinent information to the insurance company to verify this.
That is an excellent and well-considered post.
The bolded lines go back to my original thought, that continuing increases in insurance costs in south Florida make home ownership an unsustainable way of life for many.
We got out (along with many others who I saw purchasing packing boxes) in 2007, just before the plunge in house prices. We would have been among those that lost State Farm. The increasing requirements for mitigation discounts meant that the sturdy storm panels that I had purchased would no longer have met the standards - simply because of the lack of the Dade County seal. Our home was older with gable ends, so that would have been another loss of discounts - even though it went through every hurricane with ZERO damage, while our neighbors lost roofs.
I understand insurance and the need for substantial premiums in hurricane country. I understand that making insurance, which is by its very nature socialist, into a for-profit model has built-in problems - Citizens has over 7 BILLION in reserves from high premiums, in part because of minimal payouts, but also "That's because as a state-run nonprofit, Citizens doesn't pay federal taxes, stockholder dividends or executive bonuses. It gets to plow all profits into reserves."
As BNBR said - "Or are we supposed to be mad because a private company pays it's employees well?" I'm not particularly mad, but I AM struggling to figure out just what magical potion that these "well-paid" seat warmers are bringing to the table. I remember when the old movie projectionist unions were a major expense for theatre owners, getting lots of pay, lots of benefits, recliner chairs and (I'm not making this up) TVs in their booths so they wouldn't fall asleep - which they often did anyway because actual work during a six hour shift was only about one hour. I see exactly the same featherbedding going on at the executive levels of many companies, and I see those costs being passed on just like any other cost.
In essence, mandatory insurance in an area is a form of taxation without representation, and the executives reap royal rewards. If that doesn't bother you, and the benefits of living in the area are worth it, great! I'm simply saying that the article affirmed to me that I made a choice that has continued to bear fruit. The money we saved by moving not only kept us from the potential of having to suffer through foreclosure, but there was enough saved to fund ample visits to the area if we had so desired.
The bolded lines go back to my original thought, that continuing increases in insurance costs in south Florida make home ownership an unsustainable way of life for many.
We got out (along with many others who I saw purchasing packing boxes) in 2007, just before the plunge in house prices. We would have been among those that lost State Farm. The increasing requirements for mitigation discounts meant that the sturdy storm panels that I had purchased would no longer have met the standards - simply because of the lack of the Dade County seal. Our home was older with gable ends, so that would have been another loss of discounts - even though it went through every hurricane with ZERO damage, while our neighbors lost roofs.
I understand insurance and the need for substantial premiums in hurricane country. I understand that making insurance, which is by its very nature socialist, into a for-profit model has built-in problems - Citizens has over 7 BILLION in reserves from high premiums, in part because of minimal payouts, but also "That's because as a state-run nonprofit, Citizens doesn't pay federal taxes, stockholder dividends or executive bonuses. It gets to plow all profits into reserves."
As BNBR said - "Or are we supposed to be mad because a private company pays it's employees well?" I'm not particularly mad, but I AM struggling to figure out just what magical potion that these "well-paid" seat warmers are bringing to the table. I remember when the old movie projectionist unions were a major expense for theatre owners, getting lots of pay, lots of benefits, recliner chairs and (I'm not making this up) TVs in their booths so they wouldn't fall asleep - which they often did anyway because actual work during a six hour shift was only about one hour. I see exactly the same featherbedding going on at the executive levels of many companies, and I see those costs being passed on just like any other cost.
In essence, mandatory insurance in an area is a form of taxation without representation, and the executives reap royal rewards. If that doesn't bother you, and the benefits of living in the area are worth it, great! I'm simply saying that the article affirmed to me that I made a choice that has continued to bear fruit. The money we saved by moving not only kept us from the potential of having to suffer through foreclosure, but there was enough saved to fund ample visits to the area if we had so desired.
You can wonder all you want about what these "seat warmers" bring to the table. You are accusing them of being worthless, yet how many board meetings have you sat in on? How much time have you spent in that mans office, listening to strategy and discussions about running that business? Right, zero. So what an obnoxious thing of you to say.
You simply come off as someone who is resentful towards anyone more successful than you. You absolutely despise highly paid professionals. "He's highly paid?" - "Oh, must be a dishonest seat warmer." Goodness. Jealous, much?
You could save a ton of money living in lower cost of living areas, so what exactly are you trying to prove? Maybe you can go make snarky remarks on the NYC forum about how smart you are to not live in the city and pay high rents. San Francisco can use a little more of it, too.
You can wonder all you want about what these "seat warmers" bring to the table. You are accusing them of being worthless, yet how many board meetings have you sat in on? How much time have you spent in that mans office, listening to strategy and discussions about running that business? Right, zero. So what an obnoxious thing of you to say.
You simply come off as someone who is resentful towards anyone more successful than you. You absolutely despise highly paid professionals. "He's highly paid?" - "Oh, must be a dishonest seat warmer." Goodness. Jealous, much?
You could save a ton of money living in lower cost of living areas, so what exactly are you trying to prove? Maybe you can go make snarky remarks on the NYC forum about how smart you are to not live in the city and pay high rents. San Francisco can use a little more of it, too.
You are funny. You attempt to lead with anger and derision, and all you do is dig a deeper hole. I am suggesting that they are not worth the money they are being paid, "worthless" is your silly spit of hyperbole. I have been in board meetings in another industry - not fun, but mostly from fending off bean-counters attempting to wring every last drop of profit (which is their job, but they can get obsessive). If you want to call a question obnoxious, go ahead. Again, I recognize south Florida manners in action. FWIW, if you want to get the outrage in the full vernacular, may I suggest calling it "RUDE!" ? It is a nice all-inclusive word that holds great meaning for those in the area who delight in outrage and being outraged.
Your second paragraph rephrasing the simple concept of reasonable pay being commensurate with actual value is truly inspired. May I suggest your considering hiring on to one of the "If it bleeds it leads" news stations as a writer? "Dead cat by the side of the Palmetto" could easily be turned by you into "Beloved feline of disabled war vet ruthlessly run down and killed in broad daylight by insane cackling sixty year old woman with vendetta against cats!"
Inverting your last paragraph by using a common algebraic equivalent technique, perhaps you might want to visit the NYC and San Fransisco forums to learn how you can pay higher rents, since you seem to think that not paying the most you can is somehow snarky. I would be delighted if you found a way that you could happily pay more for insurance and all other services. After all, the more of your money you spend, the better it is for the economy and apparently, the better it will make you feel.
No he isn't, he's just got a different perspective on the insurance industry than you folks do. I remember being perennially piZZed off at the insurance industry when we were paying those exhorbitant and ever rising premiums to Citizens, jumping through hoops, or so it seemed, to even keep them from dropping our insurance ( including repeated inspections that smacked of sham, replacing a roof before it really needed to be done), and realizing that their priorities were pleasing their stockholders and not making their policyholders whole again after a disaster. I found it almost amusing when State Farm wanted to finance our new car, and manage our financial portfolios, but refused to provide homeowner's insurance on our new house, or insurance without exclusions on our house in Miami. And I told them exactly that.
And it didn't help reading of Citizen's practices that made premiums go ever higher, such as routinely overinflating assessed values of their insured properties ( to inflate the premiums and deductibles), the use of a mystery hurricane/windstorm prediction model ( never available for anyone's perview, even when it was requested) on which they based future risk exposure to Citizens, and premium increases; reading that they had greatly exaggerated their losses from sinkhole claims in order to raise insurance rates anywhere from 14% in the areas not likely to have sinkholes to increases somewhere in the 600-800% ranges in west central FL, the highest rates in Hillsboro and Pinellas counties. Fortunately, this never came to pass. Reading about the large bonuses and no expense spared travel arrangements for "retreats" and meetings for Citizens executives did nothing for my regard of the insurance industry either. Especially when after so many years of collecting those exhorbitant premiums, and no hurricane damage claims, the policyholders were informed that in the event of a major hurricane event, Citizens would be unable to pay out for all the claims and policyholders would need to be accessed with yet more "surcharges", before claims could be paid out.
So now, we have homeowners insurance with one of the "takeout" companies that receive a bonus from Citizens if they can maintain our policies for three years ( and their own solvency, I suspect). The premiums are much less than what we paid in Miami, and that is about the only thing I can say about this deal. We have had no claims with this company, their record at paying out claims is unknown at this point. I know they are good at taking our money. I can only hope that they would not declare bankruptcy and run for the hills at the first sign of a major hurricane or other natural disaster and related claims.
Guess I am still skeptical of insurance companies.
I was discussing comparable houses. In fact, $400k gets you a house in highly desirable areas in Broward. You can certainly buy a house in a decent area for less than that.
This is precisely the point that I made earlier: what is "decent" and "highly desirable" for some folks is nothing of the sort for others---which is the context of this whole thread. But, to each, his own, right?
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