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Again, where did I say that the FCAT was the center of the problem? You keep saying that is what I said. Its not, go back and re-read my posts. The FCAT is not the core of the problem, its the symptom. We are specifically being critical of the FCAT because that is what this thread was started about. You keep saying that FL students are far behind students from NY and other places, and that transplants are getting the jobs over them. I have no disagreement with you there. But why are FL students so far behind NY students? And how does that legitimize the FCAT? If the FCAT is not the "core" problem, then what is? Teacher's unions? Teacher's salaries? I find it hard to believe that if we fired all of the "bad" teachers that suddenly FL schools would shoot up the rankings. Or if we lowered teacher's salaries any further that they'd suddenly teach better. You call me a whiner, but what does that make you? Yeah we are all just whining about nothing, yet our state ranks 50th in education.
"The point is that the relationship of pay to competence isn't linear in education and never has been."
You're wrong. Where are you getting this from? When you lower the teachers' salaries so much that it deters good teachers from coming here, then there is a significant relationship. If you were a teacher and you had a choice between a $50,000/year job in one district and a $30,000/year job in another, where would you go? I personally know teachers who have flocked to other states because of this very reason. Now, you can ignore the politics and funding issues all you want and blame it on teachers unions and pay, but its really not a credible argument because you cannot lower teacher's salaries much more than they currently are. And the teachers' unions are the only body preventing teacher's salaries from falling down to $10/hour jobs with no benefits. If you raise teachers salaries, it will make FL schools a more attractive gig for better teachers. You get what you pay for.
Its a bogus ranking because it takes into account the FCAT's, which are designed to artificially boost performance numbers to make it appear as though we're doing better than we really are. In terms of funding per student, we actually rank dead last (50th) in the nation. So it shows that we are not investing in education.
I forgot to ask Harry (for the 2nd time) how much he thinks teachers should be paid? As it stands in FL now, their salaries rank below most professions and continue to go lower. School boards are pressuring salaries down and the teachers unions are the only entities preventing them from falling through the floor. When salaries/wages are low, it creates a disincentive for the employee to want to work there and you get a lower tier of candidates applying for the job. As a result, you get poorer results in terms of performance and competence.
My point is that the problem existed before the FCAT, and IMO was an even worse problem then. To say the FCAT is a symptom of the illness is an error. If a doctor prescribed gout medicine for a headache, the gout medicine might not cure the headache, but it wouldn't be a symptom of aching heads. IMO, the FCAT is closer to baby aspirin than gout medicine, in this metaphor.
The sub-point that I make is that teachers were not teaching the basics, prior to the FCAT. For them to now say that they can't teach other "important" subjects because of having to coach kids to get through an admittedly sub-standard test does not make any rational sense. There can only be so many basketweavers and experts on "Everybody Loves Raymond" in the world. The courses and activities that are interesting to kids are not always the ones that end up being important, and the training for the FCAT at least touches on some of the important skills that must be learned in school. Hence, my comments about sports and marching bands, which are wildly popular and endemic in the south, the pablum of the teen culture, and the focus of many teachers in Florida, and especially the surrounding states.
As for teacher wages, I think they should be performance based. I've seen teachers keep an auditorium full of otherwise unruly kids spellbound and focused on learning. I've seen other teachers where the most interesting activity in the class is how many spitballs you can attach to the ceiling.
To put it bluntly, I see little hope for kids trying to get an education in Florida, other than those that are homeschooled.
I agree that the problem existed before the FCAT. But there is no evidence that the FCAT is helping the problem. You mentioned that the kids aren't learning the basics. Well the FCAT requires so much time preparing that it means even less time to learn the basics. The "core" of the problem IMO is funding. That is why NY schools are so much better than FL schools because of funding. And the FL department of education is the center of the problem. They are the ones who create the agenda. Their agenda is to penny-pinch by failing to fund schools adequately and refusing to pay teachers decent salaries. And instead of fixing the problem, they try to sweep it under the rug. That is exactly what they are doing with these FCAT's, but using artificially inflated test results to make it appear as though kids are passing with flying colors. The FCAT has been around for about 15 years or so. Prior to that they had the HSCT's (High School Competency Test). Same people in charge, same problems existed back then, but different tests were required.
I agree that the problem existed before the FCAT. But there is no evidence that the FCAT is helping the problem. You mentioned that the kids aren't learning the basics. Well the FCAT requires so much time preparing that it means even less time to learn the basics. The "core" of the problem IMO is funding. That is why NY schools are so much better than FL schools because of funding. And the FL department of education is the center of the problem. They are the ones who create the agenda. Their agenda is to penny-pinch by failing to fund schools adequately and refusing to pay teachers decent salaries. And instead of fixing the problem, they try to sweep it under the rug. That is exactly what they are doing with these FCAT's, but using artificially inflated test results to make it appear as though kids are passing with flying colors. The FCAT has been around for about 15 years or so. Prior to that they had the HSCT's (High School Competency Test). Same people in charge, same problems existed back then, but different tests were required.
I more or less agree with the above. We seem to have reached a consensus.
I just had to reply. As a NYC student (private schools, since the NY P.S system was below standards, and NY college educated).My answers are in bold print.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
The FCAT is not the "core" of the problem. Kids in New York State had to take reagents for years before the "no child left behind" act, and they were much better educated than some of the surrounding states. The "testing is the problem" complaint just doesn't wash. Florida has a number of factors that contribute to the education problem.
1. Transient kids from other countries, and specifically some of the Caribbean countries where education is not a major concern.
That's an ignorant comment. Where did you get that dumb idea? I wonder if you are a teacher, or some complaining parent that seemingly knows nothing about other cultures, but wants to get on his soapbox from time to time. First off Education is highly regarded in these countries. They are also based off French, Spaniard, and British systems, which are far more superior than our FCAT, CRCT, systems. I will tell you that much. Way less is spent on Education, but results are greater. Granted most of these countries are poor, but dont dismiss their educational systems nor their students and their desire to learn and value on Education. I am a teacher, and most students coming here from these countries generally outperform our fellow American students, certainly in Math, Science and Social Studies. Ask most American students anything in Geography, and the answer will be evident and statement like the one above shows how much you know about things outside your backyard. Please dont speak what you know nothing about.
2. Entrenched low income families with attitudes that are a hold-over from the days of segregation.
Some truths, but enough of the hidden " " agenda. Low income does not only mean a particular group, if you know what I mean.
3. Teachers unions that allow poor teachers to continue "teaching"
Some truths. I will agree with Nolefan. Pay them better, elevate the standards and take it from there.
4. The language issues from mixing English, Spanish, Creole, Portuguese and other native languages.
Is it going to stop? Not likely. Something needs to be worked around that. Not a major issue, nor a new one. NY P.S as well as many School Boards have had to deal with it as well, nothing unique to Florida.
5. Mismanagement of education funds.
No arguments there. Always been an issue, and seemingly always will, no matter how many improvements are made.
6. Focus on sports, marching bands, and what are diversionary or trivial subjects in the adult world.
No arguments there either, but this has always existed. You need to see parents during their kids' games. They put more emphasis than the kids do. I've seen it all. Blame the parents, scouts, etc. Not just the students.
7. Poor curriculum choices.
Subjective.
8. The warm and even hot weather. Even in the north, student attentions noticeably flagged during warm spells.
Wow, the A/C system is broken? Poor Excuses. Do they learn inside or outside the classroom, where the A/C is usually somewhere around 69 degrees? I see no proof or evidence in that statement.
9. Violence and gang activity and drugs.
That's all over. Florida is not alone.
10. Disillusionment by the students.
Same as 9.
11. Undisciplined students and classes
Same as 9 and 10. I went to private school in NYC, and had friends that went to P.S all over the city. That's the reason why my parents decided to send me and my siblings to private schools to begin with. It's not a Florida only thing.
There are more, but those are a start.
A couple years back, a Junior at a respected private religious school in Ft Lauderdale (W.A. if those initials ring a bell) asked me to proof a few papers prior to his submitting them. The kid was a great kid, very smart, and able to go on to an ivy league school and get good grades, but his papers at that time were written at what would have been a Freshman level at my high school in the northeast.
Subjective. I can say the same about students in NY. I'm not saying that Florida schools dont need a good overhaul. They do, but your statements are no more than poor generalizations; some that can be applied anywhere for that matter.
Yes the FCAT keeps kids focused on passing the FCAT. IMO, the only reason it does so is that the level of education is SO low that what should be an easily attainable bar seems set far too high. I have very little sympathy for parents and teachers complaining about standardized testing. It is a travesty that generations of kids have graduated from Florida schools with functional illiteracy, while the teachers unions have demanded higher wages and spent money on corrupt leadership. FCAT is merely the messenger that things are horrendously wrong. I can flat out guarantee that every kid in my sophomore high school class could have passed the senior level Florida FCAT with flying colors. I'm sorry to be the bearer of such bad tidings, but the adult world is cold and hard, and employers toss the applications of the illiterate into dead files, unless they need a grunt worker that can be abused.
No big argument there. But teachers being paid enough as is (in another one of your posts), please.
"That's an ignorant comment. Where did you get that dumb idea? I wonder if you are a teacher, or some complaining parent that seemingly knows nothing about other cultures, but wants to get on his soapbox from time to time. First off Education is highly regarded in these countries. They are also based off French, Spaniard, and British systems, which are far more superior than our FCAT, CRCT, systems. I will tell you that much. Way less is spent on Education, but results are greater. Granted most of these countries are poor, but dont dismiss their educational systems nor their students and their desire to learn and value on Education. I am a teacher, and most students coming here from these countries generally outperform our fellow American students, certainly in Math, Science and Social Studies. Ask most American students anything in Geography, and the answer will be evident and statement like the one above shows how much you know about things outside your backyard. Please dont speak what you know nothing about."
I despair. I hope that you are not, as you claim to be, a college educated teacher. If so, then I'm afraid I must call your ignorance out.
For the mods, a gentle reminder that an ad hom attack is an attack on the person, as in the Saturday Night Live skit "Jane, you ignorant ****." An attack on the stated credentials of a person who is posturing is not an ad hom attack, but a standard debate technique, used in courts throughout the land to discredit witnesses and self-proclaimed experts. This poster has questioned my credentials, and I now return that volley by questioning the veracity of the claims being made, and the credentials of the person debating my points.
If you had read through and understood the entire thread, you would have known, prior to writing your epistle, that I hired (or at least tried to hire) the results of the Florida educational system. Not one kid, not two kids, but as direct employer of dozens and supervisor of hundreds of them.
I listed, in my enumeration of the source problems for education in south Florida: "Transient kids from other countries, and specifically some of the Caribbean countries where education is not a major concern. "
You responded:
"That's an ignorant comment."
I'll provide one example to back-up my point. Have you traveled to Haiti or read about it recently? You do remember that it is located in the Caribbean and has a large population of ex-pats in south Florida? Please explain exactly how you meant the word "ignorant."
"Where did you get that dumb idea?"
I got that dumb idea from looking at job application forms, looking at the kids that filled them out, and looking on a map. It was very simple to do so. I didn't even need a college degree.
"I wonder if you are a teacher, or some complaining parent that seemingly knows nothing about other cultures, but wants to get on his soapbox from time to time."
You wouldn't need to wonder if you read the entire thread, or a few other posts that I have made. (You also used "seemingly" in an ineffectual place in the sentence.)
"First off Education is highly regarded in these countries."
First off, (note the comma) education is not capitalized.
"They are also based off French, Spaniard, and British systems, which are far more superior than our FCAT, CRCT, systems."
Secondly, that would be SpanISH, not SpanIARD, which refers to a person, not a place. Thirdly, "far more superior" is redundant. The use of the word "than" is incorrect - systems superior than s/b systems superior to... There is also an extraneous comma after CRCT, and you should have used "on" rather than "off." I won't get into the debate between proper usage of British vs. English, vs. U.K..
"I will tell you that much."
Please tell me more. You are quickly exposing your self-stated education... "As a NYC student (private schools, since the NY P.S system was below standards, and NY college educated)." I'm beginning to wonder if my standards are set too high. As someone who did not graduate college, I find that your use of the language belies your degree.
"Way less is spent on Education, but results are greater."
Quibbling, there is a missing "the," in your posit, but to get to the point, my personal experience with some of the kids from those countries runs counter to your claim. I won't deny that there are some kids who are much brighter and more educated, but in my experience it is the families of those kids that makes the difference. Oh yes, I neglected to mention that I have also been in contact with kids while doing tech support in Puerto Rico and the Barbados.
"Granted most of these countries are poor, but dont dismiss their educational systems nor their students and their desire to learn and value on Education."
I am seriously questioning your claim of college education. Your statement has a missing apostrophe, a missing "neither" in a neither nor phrase, and improper use of "on" for what I think you meant to be "of their education." Again, the word "education" is not capitalized.
"I am a teacher, and most students coming here from these countries generally outperform our fellow American students, certainly in Math, Science and Social Studies."
I was about to dispute your argument, but then I realized that you may have been making your point by making an example of yourself. Editing your sentence, I come up with "I am a teacher. In my experience, most students from the Caribbean nations outperform the U.S. students in math, science, and social studies."
The way you have written the sentence, you imply cause and effect: "I am a teacher, therefor...". The use of "most" in the sentence is a qualifier. The use of "generally" is a qualifier qualifying the already qualified "students." I'm guessing you were not an English major. (Yes, the capitalization is correct in this instance.)
"Ask most American students anything in Geography, and the answer will be evident and statement like the one above shows how much you know about things outside your backyard."
OK, here is the scoop - course headings can be capitalized when writing about a specific course of study. "Geography - course instructor Jim Jones - 3 credits" In general usage, the words geography, math, etc., are not capitalized.
"Ask most American students anything in Geography..." The college educated statement would hopefully end the phrase with "about geography" and not "in Geography," unless the students were spelunking. Your Geography course is not the same as the subject of geography. If you want to ask most U.S. students any question related to your course, Geography, great. It won't mean much, since your course is a subset of the greater subject. Judging by the rest of your sentence, it would appear that by the end of their responses, your attention would have wandered away anyway. To repeat:
"Ask most American students anything in Geography, and the answer will be evident and statement like the one above shows how much you know about things outside your backyard."
That was a nice run-on sentence that would have been caught by my fourth grade teacher.
"Please dont speak what you know nothing about." (sic)
Upon proofing this post, I have had second thoughts about the relative merits of various educational systems. Based upon your post, I now agree with you that the FCAT and CRCT are not effective. I still, however, know that many of the kids filling out job applications in south Florida were functionally illiterate. I despair more now than I did before I read your post.
You did not answer anything. You just tried to make corrections, which are pointless and childish (It just masked your lack of answers to my points). I just wanted you to reply logically, which you failed to do.
And yes, I have been to quite a few Caribbean Islands, including Haiti and Dominican Republic. What is your point? Have you been anywhere else? I dont think so. You sure dont sound like it.
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