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Old 02-02-2010, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Fletcher, NC
98 posts, read 525,154 times
Reputation: 78

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Loves2read,

FEMA recently has been upgrading the flood maps nation wide.....this is a regular process. What they do basically is have a survey process cross section data of the flood valley at various points (these can be over a 1000 feet apart). They then have an aerial topographic flight gather ground data for the flood valley....hence you are very unlikely to see surveyors, though your properties topographic data was picked up. From there engineers use hydrology models, the topographic data, flow control points (I.E. bridges, large culverts, etc) and develop a model of what would happen during a large storm event (I.E. 100 year storm, 50 ear storm) which have predefined precipitation values. This process is usually very accurate, but also subject to miss-data at times. Also realize that the predefined precipitation values are very conservative......this is really to protect the public welfare. All of this data is usually very well documented in newspapers and local government including public meetings.

The above poster is very correct in that you might want to investigate getting a flood certification done. If the surveyor finds that the house is indeed out of the flood zone (and this will include the garage) then you can file a LOMR or LOMAR depending on his findings. I definitely would not suggest going low bidder on this. You want a very thorough job done. If they surveyor doesn't do the right amount of work but gets your insurance waived.....and he is wrong and your house floods...then no insurance coverage. The savings of course can be massive if the house is in deed out of the flood plain. At the cost of $2000-3000 dollars you could be saving $3000-4000 in insurance premiums per year and of course the lost resale value of the home. I do once again remind you...don't go lowest bidder (there was just a court case in Texas that involved similar issues and a home owner selecting the cheapest firm)...this is something you want done right.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:23 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,487,504 times
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thanks for the thoughtful reply

there was a sign posted in fall of 08 in the Bedford library about FEMA reviewing the flood zone--before we bought our Hurst house--but I missed the meeting--when I called the city about it and talked to someone in public works I was told that it probably would not affect our specific area because it did not flood--that they were more concerned with the areas in Haltom City, FTW, and others that had seen flooding in 07

is there any way to know which survey firm would be better--there are several in our immediate area including one that did the survey for the house in Hurst (next town over) we bought in 08--

and is there any way to find out what the top reasons were for deciding why the house now in flood zone IS in the flood zone and houses fairly close and at lower elevation are not?

would the city or FEMA tell me that--

I don't see the point in spending 2-3K to be told that our house really is not outside the new flood zone parameters---I am not trying to buy a decision--so what makes the specific determination--would you know in general???
I mean does the fact that we have a concrete 4 ft wall along our creek-side property line work to our advantage vs people with more irregular configurations or none--
does it hurt us MORE that we have a storm drain opening on the rear of our street-side boundary --our neighbor to the right does not--yet the line went into their rear garage--
our neighbor to the left does--and yet the line only touches the outside of his garage...and house on the other side of his I believe does have a storm drain at the front sidewalk line but their garage is at the rear and has been zoned into flood zone...

and I don't mean to doubt you-- but the idea that a fly-over photograph run was as accurate a means of judging topography/elevation/contour than having a survey crew on site does not equate--it was a less-expensive means, that I will grant...
and the fact that FEMA is using data supplied probably from 3rd party sources--like the local cities' development maps--vs actually seeing first-hand some of the specifications in real-world situations just makes me think there is room for error in the decision...

the wall built supposedly "correctly" in the San Antonio development Rivermist that failed last week is case in point--
on paper it was supposedly find--and the city claims that the inspection process would have ensured construction followed plans--but tragically--the real-world senario is that Centex apparently did not follow through with building the walls according to the specifications of a FTW engineering firm's redesign when it failed the first time--the city did not apply oversight to ensure that the builders were doing it properly--
and now people have been moved from their homes, even if the wall can be repaired now to save them--I doubt if anyone will believe that this fix will work any better than the last one...and frankly I think it would be cheaper to just pay the people off, tear down the houses, terrace the hillside, and put a park on top...

someone on another site posted commentary that a city's public works dept is the one who does most of the leg work gathering data and that is just passed along to FEMA who basically rubber stamps--is that not the case or can be the case in some situations?

Last edited by loves2read; 02-02-2010 at 10:04 AM..
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Fletcher, NC
98 posts, read 525,154 times
Reputation: 78
As far as who you should talk to...basically there should be either a city or county flood plain administrator (yes open ended answer....but it really is dependent on many factors including size of the city etc). These are the people I talk with....the FEMA agency itself really aren't the people to talk with. I would give the local planning department a call and ask for the flood plain administrator. If they aren't in that department, they will usually forward you to the right person.

As far as the aerial data....it is usually pretty accurate. Not as accurate as a field run survey, but like you mentioned...the cost of doing a survey on the ground for the whole area would be extremely high as we are talking areas in the size of counties...or townships. So the survey crews confirm the aerial data by doing the cross sections at specific points.

As far as how the flood plain modeling works... it isn't as straight forward as elevations. Remember we are talking the whole flood plain...and a volume of water moving through it for a certain type of storm. So let's say directly across the ditch from your house is a hill that is higher than your house. As the water hits that hill it will need to go somewhere...at this is higher up onto your property. Of course the houses farther down stream from you might have a flood elevation that is lower because there is no hill across the ditch and the ditch elevation has also dropped. Those are just generalities for examples, but there isn't a straight forward easy answer for each property.

I will get back to you with a few recommendations. Though I am not in Texas, I do have contacts there who might have recommendations or be in your area.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:13 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,487,504 times
Reputation: 25330
would you send me a PM and give me your background in this--so I can explain to my husband why your recommendation has value...
+++I checked your info page and saw you are professional surveyor+++most people don't post that stuff...

my husband said the city has delayed digging this ditch/creek/run-off channel to a deeper depth during the years when the city was growing and more run-off was funneling through here...
he is angry that now there is little likelyhood anything will be done by the city to relieve the burden this channel carries...
the fact that it runs into another, larger creek just across a boundary/road into another city means that there are two entities who share the responsibility for how to manage the run-off --and they never agree about anything--which enables both of them to effectively do nothing...
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Fletcher, NC
98 posts, read 525,154 times
Reputation: 78
I am not most people....I love what I do and if I come across somebody in need of advice...I share what I can. If it helps them in the long run....then I have performed as a professional.
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Old 02-02-2010, 04:48 PM
 
436 posts, read 1,608,093 times
Reputation: 166
has there been any construction near your home? that would affect run-off patterns...

we were looking at flood plain maps before we bought our house in our (new home) neighborhood. the development of our neighborhood meant that a few streets in the adjoining neighborhood are now in a flood plain. as you can imagine, a lot of those homes are now for sale. really sad part is the homes are 3-5 years old. so, not built in a flood plain, but stuck in one now. all because some homes got built next door.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:39 PM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,487,504 times
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there has been no new construction in my neighborhood or the one next to it or across the street from mine in 20 yrs I guess--
the city did a major street overhaul about 10 yrs ago which involved reworking some of the older drainage...
there has relatively few commercial/retail type of building in area that is directly around us in past 5 yrs probably...
so I don't think in our immediate area new construction is the problem--I think it is more the idea that the storm drains might not be able to handle runoff volumns like what came down in 2007 in areas of Haltom City and Wautage and FTW if Bedford got the same levels of rain--which frankly was worse than a 100 yr flood in my mind--more like what happens with hurricane conditions--

but I don't know how large a watershed FEMA considers when deciding to amend a flood plain designation--that is what I am hoping the FEMA mapper I talked to today will come back with--
the reasons why our street and the one behind up and some other homes in the immediate area are now in HIGH RISK flood zone when our immediate area/situation has not changed...

I don't know where you are but in my area, towns run very close together and municipalities don't always share a common game plan--so what one city might allow that would not really affect it adversely COULD have negative effect in next town which has NO control over what is done...

and frankly your situation should never have been allowed to happen...
the entire idea of city/county code and flood mapping and planning/zoning and public works departments is specifically to prevent what your developer building that neighborhood caused...

YOUR developer should have had to provide proper water drainage before building a house to ensure that other people's properties were not put at risk...Your city really screwed up...and now that I wrote that I hope you are not in Hurst...
Would you mind saying your town if not your subdivison
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Old 02-03-2010, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Fletcher, NC
98 posts, read 525,154 times
Reputation: 78
Needsomeinfo-

It really doesn't work that way on average. The flood plain modeling is of the whole watershed and usually what happens up stream affects the floodplain a mile away. What you are seeing (though development upstream may have an affect) is that on the average most of the new maps I am seeing have BFE's higher...which shows that development throughout the watershed is having an effect on the whole system. There may also be other causes such as refinement to the 100 year storm definitions in your area, etc.

Either way it does affect everyone and something that should be in potential home buyers minds.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:51 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,487,504 times
Reputation: 25330
just a follow up--

we did decide to get a survey company to help us file a letter of map amendment with FEMA and hope that the survey would show that our house (if not all the lot) was out of the flood zone...

FEMA did not have any NEW on-the-ground measurements or calculations of run-off flow regarding how our area had changed over the past 20 yrs (and I called and spoke with three different people at FEMA or Corps of engineers)

Basically that new map/flood zone lines were guestimates in MY area--in other areas maybe FEMA actually did some measuring on the ground and did new calculations for run-off flow and water volume but not in my immediate area

the survey company used a Bedford planning/zoning map with flood elevations along the creek behind our house...that was about 10 yrs old...for plotting the flood elevations along the creek
then the survey company came out and did an on-site survey--
they even went into the front of the house and the garage to take those readings in addition to the ones at several points in the yard...

I can't say enough good things about the survey company we used--
MOKE SURVEYORS--they are off Cheek Sparger and were close to both our houses--we know someone who builds commercially and that is who he uses and the guy with the Bedford Planning/zoning that helped me get some map and other info said he thought they were pretty good...
they were very nice on the phone and the times I went into the office--and I took up a lot of their time I know--
FEMA sent back two queries about our submission--because there was further info they needed (but that was not asked for in the instructions)--each time FEMA came to part of the form for map amendment and did not find some info--they stopped and sent the request--
vs reading all the form 1 time and asking for both pieces of info in one letter--

Moke was helpful and quick in getting the info and I had to send it off--but FEMA gave us a new start date each time so except for the delay in general it did not harm our request...

we had to take out flood insurance--our normal home insurance company's quote was double what the mortgage company was quoting us--which was a discounted price FEMA made available to banks--
the coverage is exactly the same -- max amount of 250K--which is fine for our house--
the policy allows that IF FEMA agrees to a letter of map amendment--we can apply to cancel the insurance and the bank MIGHT agree--most of the time they do--and the policy is cancelled--
so the months we paid for already we don't get back but should not have to pay any more once the bank knows...
IF the bank says we have to keep the ins because the floor level might still be on lot vs encroaching on house the amount might be less..depending on what it might be reduced to we might consider keeping it...as long as the house itself is not in flood zone..

there were several homes in my neighborhood that were affected by being reclassified into a flood zone--one homeowner found out when he went to refinance his house and had to take out flood insurance--
I don't know if they tried for letter of map amendment or not--Moke told us that several people in our neighborhood had come to them to do a different type of map amendment process but I think they might have found out sooner about their reclassification...

so overall we are pretty happy--if we go to sell, the house should not be classified as being in flood zone
and hopefully we won't have to continue the floor insurance premium...
one conversation I had with an engineer at Moke about how likely it was our house could/would flood kind of relieved my mind--
he said that basically water always seeks the lowest level and that it was very, very unlikely that our house would flood from the creek water backing up to our lot/house because there was so much land at lower elevation where the creek flows down/away from our lot
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Old 06-20-2010, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Mostly in my head
19,855 posts, read 65,582,737 times
Reputation: 19374
Thanks for educating us about what can be done! I'd rep you again but I have to spread the love some more.
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