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Old 05-03-2011, 04:01 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,826,605 times
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Today SNAP released the most recent food stamp numbers. Not surprisingly, we just saw another all time high 44.2 million poverty-level Americans relying on government funding for day to day sustenance.

the economy is running on fumes and we're not even headed towards a gas station.

i guess when everyone is on food stamps, it will be this administration's "mission accomplished" moment.

this ties directly to the mentality (as observed here via nancy pelosi), on how food stamps create "wealth".....:


At a press conference in her home town of San Francisco, Pelosi explained that the program’s multiplier effect –the amount of money generated in the local economy as the result of the subsidy– far exceeds the nearly $60 billion spent this year by the federal government and is a sure-fire way to stimulate the economy. For every dollar a person receives in food stamps, Pelosi said that $1.79 is put back into the economy. The U.S. Department of Agriculture cites an even higher figure of $1.84.

According to Pelosi the multiplier effect for food stamps is 1.79 and the Agriculture Department cites an even more absurd multiplier of 1.84. The absurdity of the multiplier effect can be easily proven by reductio ad absurdum. If the multiplier effect is true why don’t we just spend an infinite amount of money then we will be infinitely wealthy? You cannot create wealth by taking money from one person (who created the wealth) and giving it to another person to spend –(on food in this case).

do they actually believe this, or do they just want us to think they do?

Entropy proves that you cannot even get $1 of return for each $1 spent on food stamps. the obvious losses include the cost of the bureaucrats to run the food stamp program, the time, effort and gas the recipients expend to obtain the food stamps. This does not add to GDP, since it is CONSUMPTION. Economists seem confused that the P in GDP is for spending or consumption, when it stands for Product or PRODUCTION.

Last edited by floridasandy; 05-03-2011 at 04:15 AM..
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:36 AM
 
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I rarely eat food stamps. They always get stuck to the roof of my mouth! Which is only multiplied if I put peanut butter on them.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:45 AM
 
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to many people have learned to milk the system who dont need these things.

we were hiring at our company for the warehouse and had people coming in telling us they need 20 bucks an hour as thats what it would take to be more than their un-employment and working off the books at the deli.

every number out there is skewed today about everything from the un-employed to food stamps to welfare.

yeah there are legitimate folks who need it but ill bet there are just as many who are just milking the system.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:58 AM
 
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this isn't just about food stamps. the government is clearly in denial about the state of affairs in this country. here are the eligibility rules:

Limits on Assets When Applying for Food Stamps | eHow.com

(although i have not verified this)


the government is piling people on food stamps at the same time that it stopped/suspended reporting data.

(nathan's economic edge):
One of my greatest concerns coming out of the financial crisis of 2008 was that, eventually, free services like government data would be reduced or lost altogether. This afternoon I learned from EIA Washington that one of the cornerstones of my own work, and also the work of others globally, is about to be suspended: the gathering of International Energy Statistics. For me professionally, this is among the most important gateways to monthly data on global oil production. As I said, after 2008 I came to recognize my own professional dependency on this free data. But, I never actually expected to lose my access. Well, that’s always the way, isn’t it? Below is a portion of today’s EIA Press Release:

You can follow the link to the Press Release.

The bottom line is that the data is being cut off in the same manner that M3 is no longer reported. When you can’t stand the heat, cut off the data.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:20 AM
 
20,948 posts, read 18,933,595 times
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How do you starve a recipient class family?

Hide their food stamps under their work boots.
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:15 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,240,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
How do you starve a recipient class family?

Hide their food stamps under their work boots.

Where would someone with work boots get a job these days? (I know an unemployed construction worker.)
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,624 posts, read 18,985,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
Today SNAP released the most recent food stamp numbers. Not surprisingly, we just saw another all time high 44.2 million poverty-level Americans relying on government funding for day to day sustenance.
That would be incorrect.

It would be 44.2 Million households, not 44.2 Million people.

Only one person per household can get Food Stamps. It would be possible under certain conditions for there to be 2 households in one housing unit, and that would result in 2 people in a single housing unit to receive Food Stamps, but that would be extremely rare. I believe the average household size is 2.7 people, so in reality, there are roughly 120 Million people on Food Stamps, or a little more than 1/3 of the US population.

Also, not every household receives the same amount of Food Stamp benefits, for example, a single person would receive $16/month in Food Stamps if they were on Social Security Disability or VA Disability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
At a press conference in her home town of San Francisco, Pelosi explained that the program’s multiplier effect –the amount of money generated in the local economy as the result of the subsidy– far exceeds the nearly $60 billion spent this year by the federal government and is a sure-fire way to stimulate the economy. For every dollar a person receives in food stamps, Pelosi said that $1.79 is put back into the economy. The U.S. Department of Agriculture cites an even higher figure of $1.84.
That would be an outrageous lie.

At most, Food Stamps sans fraud would be a $1/$1 exchange, that is I give you $200 in Food Stamps and you buy $200 in food, not I give you $200 in Food Stamps and you buy $358 worth of food (which is what Pelosi is claiming).

Food Stamp fraud is 20%-30%. People sell Food Stamps for cash, usually at the rate of $0.50 for $1 Food Stamp. I know, I live in an high fraud area and I get asked 1-3 times each time I walk to Kroger's if I want to buy Food Stamps.

They sell the Food Stamps for cash which they then promptly use to buy beer, cigarettes, lotto or drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
this isn't just about food stamps. the government is clearly in denial about the state of affairs in this country. here are the eligibility rules:

Limits on Assets When Applying for Food Stamps | eHow.com

(although i have not verified this)
Yes, the government asks, but doesn't verify. Investigation of Food Stamp fraud, whether it is at the time of application or during the course of use of the Food Stamps is up to the States. The States do get income data, so if you lie about your income, they will eventually discover that, but as far as lying about your assets (ie how much in stocks, bonds, cash, checking/savings accounts etc) I don't know that anyone attempts to verify that (and they don't ask where you bank although they could check using your Social Security number).

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
One of my greatest concerns coming out of the financial crisis of 2008 was that, eventually, free services like government data would be reduced or lost altogether. This afternoon I learned from EIA Washington that one of the cornerstones of my own work, and also the work of others globally, is about to be suspended: the gathering of International Energy Statistics. For me professionally, this is among the most important gateways to monthly data on global oil production. As I said, after 2008 I came to recognize my own professional dependency on this free data. But, I never actually expected to lose my access. Well, that’s always the way, isn’t it? Below is a portion of today’s EIA Press Release:

You can follow the link to the Press Release.

The bottom line is that the data is being cut off in the same manner that M3 is no longer reported. When you can’t stand the heat, cut off the data.
Yes, hide the data. It doesn't bode well. I also track energy statistics for a number of reasons. For example, al-Hussein who was the former vice president of Saudi Aramco testified before a US congressional committee in 2005 that Saudi Arabia had over-inflated its reserve estimates and that Saudi Arabia could not meet the production quotas established by the EIA.

For example, (from the testimony) the EIA (and yes, that is the EIA and not OPEC) wants Saudi Arabia to produce 13 Million bpd by 2015, but that is simply not going to happen based on the current data (the Saudis are still producing 9+ Million bpd). That is to say the Saudis have increased production by 1 Million bpd in 5 years.

Witness Illinois Intermediate. You have over 4,000 wells pumping 25,000 bpd so that tells you that each barrel that comes out of the ground (and a well averages about 8-19 bpd) is about 50% oil and 50% water (which is injected into the ground to keep the geologic formation from collapsing and to also maintain static fluid pressure for ease of pumping). The Saudis are nowhere near that bad off, but I can't believe they're pumping 100% oil either (and yes it does increase production costs significantly).
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:34 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,240,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That would be incorrect.

It would be 44.2 Million households, not 44.2 Million people.

Only one person per household can get Food Stamps. It would be possible under certain conditions for there to be 2 households in one housing unit, and that would result in 2 people in a single housing unit to receive Food Stamps, but that would be extremely rare. I believe the average household size is 2.7 people, so in reality, there are roughly 120 Million people on Food Stamps, or a little more than 1/3 of the US population.

Also, not every household receives the same amount of Food Stamp benefits, for example, a single person would receive $16/month in Food Stamps if they were on Social Security Disability or VA Disability.



That would be an outrageous lie.

At most, Food Stamps sans fraud would be a $1/$1 exchange, that is I give you $200 in Food Stamps and you buy $200 in food, not I give you $200 in Food Stamps and you buy $358 worth of food (which is what Pelosi is claiming).

Food Stamp fraud is 20%-30%. People sell Food Stamps for cash, usually at the rate of $0.50 for $1 Food Stamp. I know, I live in an high fraud area and I get asked 1-3 times each time I walk to Kroger's if I want to buy Food Stamps.

For Food Stamps, the definition of "household" isn't what a lot of people think it is. You seem to be describing a group of people living together in a dwelling unit (house or apartment).

For Food Stamps, a household consists of all the individuals in a dwelling unit who share food together, e.g. parents and their children.

I live in a house with four other people and to the Food Stamp beancounters, there are FOUR households here: one married couple sharing food together, and three unrelated individuals who buy, prepare, and consume food separately. (It is certainly possible and is quite common for a group of people sharing housing to also share food, but in this house, we do not.)

I think the married couple gets Food Stamps, I do not, and I have no idea about the other two, who moved in recently.

I think Pelosi was referring to the "multiplier" to describe additional spending driven by the initial purchase, not to suggest that $1 of Food Stamps somehow was purchasing more than $1 of food. For example, aggregate food spending supports additional spending associated with production, transportation, wholesaling, and retailing. When I go to a supermarket and purchase $100 of food, jobs are supported and wages are paid.
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:16 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,826,605 times
Reputation: 4454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That would be incorrect.

It would be 44.2 Million households, not 44.2 Million people.

Only one person per household can get Food Stamps. It would be possible under certain conditions for there to be 2 households in one housing unit, and that would result in 2 people in a single housing unit to receive Food Stamps, but that would be extremely rare. I believe the average household size is 2.7 people, so in reality, there are roughly 120 Million people on Food Stamps, or a little more than 1/3 of the US population.

Also, not every household receives the same amount of Food Stamp benefits, for example, a single person would receive $16/month in Food Stamps if they were on Social Security Disability or VA Disability.



That would be an outrageous lie.

At most, Food Stamps sans fraud would be a $1/$1 exchange, that is I give you $200 in Food Stamps and you buy $200 in food, not I give you $200 in Food Stamps and you buy $358 worth of food (which is what Pelosi is claiming).

Food Stamp fraud is 20%-30%. People sell Food Stamps for cash, usually at the rate of $0.50 for $1 Food Stamp. I know, I live in an high fraud area and I get asked 1-3 times each time I walk to Kroger's if I want to buy Food Stamps.

They sell the Food Stamps for cash which they then promptly use to buy beer, cigarettes, lotto or drugs.



Yes, the government asks, but doesn't verify. Investigation of Food Stamp fraud, whether it is at the time of application or during the course of use of the Food Stamps is up to the States. The States do get income data, so if you lie about your income, they will eventually discover that, but as far as lying about your assets (ie how much in stocks, bonds, cash, checking/savings accounts etc) I don't know that anyone attempts to verify that (and they don't ask where you bank although they could check using your Social Security number).



Yes, hide the data. It doesn't bode well. I also track energy statistics for a number of reasons. For example, al-Hussein who was the former vice president of Saudi Aramco testified before a US congressional committee in 2005 that Saudi Arabia had over-inflated its reserve estimates and that Saudi Arabia could not meet the production quotas established by the EIA.

For example, (from the testimony) the EIA (and yes, that is the EIA and not OPEC) wants Saudi Arabia to produce 13 Million bpd by 2015, but that is simply not going to happen based on the current data (the Saudis are still producing 9+ Million bpd). That is to say the Saudis have increased production by 1 Million bpd in 5 years.

Witness Illinois Intermediate. You have over 4,000 wells pumping 25,000 bpd so that tells you that each barrel that comes out of the ground (and a well averages about 8-19 bpd) is about 50% oil and 50% water (which is injected into the ground to keep the geologic formation from collapsing and to also maintain static fluid pressure for ease of pumping). The Saudis are nowhere near that bad off, but I can't believe they're pumping 100% oil either (and yes it does increase production costs significantly).
i just copied a line from a chart in the first sentence because i am lazy, but i certainly hope that you are not denying that food stamps in america are at an all time high, nor that increased usage is detrimental to the economic health of the united states. it represents an outflow, not an inflow. as for the outrageous lie, take it up with pelosi-who tries to paint it as an economic benefit, a wealth "multiplier".


we seem to be in agreement about the fraud, which will likely escalate with increasing numbers of people obtaining food stamps. personally, i live in a town where i never saw food stamps (the card) being used before and now i do. i am also sure that other people have seen this trend in their neighborhood grocery stores (or have had to use food stamps themselves).

the charts for food stamp usage:

http://www.dailyjobsupdate.com/publi...-stamps-charts

Last edited by floridasandy; 05-03-2011 at 08:31 AM..
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:48 PM
 
16,956 posts, read 16,628,570 times
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I thought food stamps came on a Debit Card set up ?
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