replanting a bad lawn in bad soil... (flower, lawns, landscaping)

[TimR76]

After a year in our new home, we have decided that our sparse, weedy lawn just needs to be re-done. I think the problem is that, in classic fashion, the builder probably made off with the actual topsoil. The soil in our flowerbeds against the house isn't bad, but right at the edge where it touches the lawn you can see it trail off into a light brown, clay/silt mix with a lot of rocks. It looks like they trucked in some nice topsoil in the flowerbeds but that's about it.

So - I have a few steps to follow.

First, I need to get rid of the old lawn. Since I have almost 3/4 of an acre, how would I best accomplish this? Using a chemical like Roundup to kill EVERYTHING in the lawn (besides trees etc of course) and start over? Or use a sod cutter?

Second, I need to amend the soil. I would like to bring in some bulk compost and composted manure, and till it in to a depth of about 18" or so - there are no large trees or other things that I could damage (just a few small trees I can till around), but what kind of machine would I need to do this with? I want to bring in compost to maybe a 6 - 9" depth and really work it in.

Third, replant the lawn.

Any advice? Am I on the right track? I thought of just buying straight topsoil but the cost is outrageous for a lot this large if I actually want something deep enough to plant anything in.

[cittic10]

You don't mention where you are or what type of grass you're interested in planting.
A couple of things to consider are that you're going to undergo significant expense to improve the lawn yet the lawn will only reward you with ongoing maintenance and expenses. The concept of a lawn originated in a country where it never gets above 75 degrees and rains almost every day and has well draining rich loamy soil. If that doesn't sound like your climate then you're going to be bound to maintaining it or it can really detract from your property. As it is, lawns don't add any value to homes nowadays and if it looks bad, that's even worse.

You asked "Am I on the right track?"
No.
The right track is to eliminate as much lawn as possible. You also mentioned you have no large trees that can be damaged. But you should. Large trees are what adds value to a property, not grass. My suggestion would be to use the space that you have to return to natural habitat (free, low maintenance landscsaping by mother nature) or use drought tolerant native or well-adapated plants and install landscaping that actually adds value to the property and rewards you with energy-saving shade, privacy and beauty as opposed to constant mowing, chemical spraying, fertilizer spreading and watering.

If you want to instead go down the wrong path, then sure, go ahead and kill it off with a non-selective herbicide, till up what you got and remove the rocks (have fun with that), level it and then haul in some top soil and then level that. Do soil tests and adjust the pH or add nutrients if necessary. Then order your sod or prepare for the joys of starting a lawn by seed. Not a good time of year to do either by the way.

By the way, if you chose the "right path", you wouldn't have to do anything to the soil.
Just some food for thought.







cittic10 on lawn removal trees native landscaping

[Butterfly4u]

Tim,
If weeds grow in your soil, grass will grow.
i have no idea where you are or what your zone is. I will try to answer
covering most zones.
DONT TILL.
Please don't till the lawn. Do not. Trust me.
I'm not going into an hour explanation, but don't til.
If you are in an area where you would plant cold season grass, wait
to seed til the fall. Fescue, Kentucky Bluegrass, ect.
For the cold season grass, you want to enrich the soil that you have
so that the little buggies in the soil wake up and make the soil rich.
You can add composted manure, you don't need a tremendous amount of
it, just make sure you get some on the soil.
When you add the manure, you have added the "buggies".
Now you have to feed them.
Go to your nearest FEED store, and pick up a couple 50 lb bags
of soybean meal. Use a spreader and spread it on the soil where you
just put the manure. Be generous. Your soil probably needs it.
You can use corn meal feed too, but I like soybean because I have
centipede grass.
Wait at least 3 weeks before seeding. It will take 3 weeks for the
soybean meal to be to the point where you can seed.
Then seed right over the soil.
The grass will grow in the fall and all winter for you. Then in the spring,
apply Alfalfa meal. You can buy this at feed store. You just throw it on
at whatever amount you want, just don't smother the grass.
Now, for WARM season grass,
It's getting late to seed now. But you can still do it if you move quickly.
Buy the soybean meal as stated above, apply to soil after
applying your composted cow manure.
Apply generously.
You have to wait 3 weeks for the soybean meal to break down.
Seed generously with whatever warm season seed you want.
You can add molasses and water to the composted cow manure and soybean
meal to speed things up, but I would wait 3 weeks.
Hopefully your seedlings will make it through winter.
In the spring Alfalfa meal feeds the soil and grass, and contains
a growth hormone to help them out.

I probably sound like a nut to you, but trust me, it works.
I was in the same situation you are in, I live in the south,
so I grow warm season grass. I went through years of disappointment
til I used the feeds. it works. It's simple, inexpensive and you can do it
any time of the year.
Good Luck!

[HB2HSV]

Both excellent feedback y'all. I have bermuda on my lawn, 2 yrs ago I experimented with overseeding with fescue in the fall for a green-looking lawn in the winter. This spring I got clumps of fescue on my lawn while the bermuda was still asleep, not a good looking sight. I wonder if I should continue to seed the fescue in the fall, and eventually choke out the bermuda, or cut it out and hopefully the bermuda will win back the "turf"?

[TimR76]

I'm in the Columbus, OH area - and would use Kentucky Bluegrass/Fescue or a Tall Fescue, most likely.

Why no tilling? If the soil is compacted, and you need to amend it, how will anything penetrate if you don't break it up first?

[TimR76]

Originally Posted by cittic10

You don't mention where you are or what type of grass you're interested in planting.
A couple of things to consider are that you're going to undergo significant expense to improve the lawn yet the lawn will only reward you with ongoing maintenance and expenses. The concept of a lawn originated in a country where it never gets above 75 degrees and rains almost every day and has well draining rich loamy soil. If that doesn't sound like your climate then you're going to be bound to maintaining it or it can really detract from your property. As it is, lawns don't add any value to homes nowadays and if it looks bad, that's even worse.

You asked "Am I on the right track?"
No.
The right track is to eliminate as much lawn as possible. You also mentioned you have no large trees that can be damaged. But you should. Large trees are what adds value to a property, not grass. My suggestion would be to use the space that you have to return to natural habitat (free, low maintenance landscsaping by mother nature) or use drought tolerant native or well-adapated plants and install landscaping that actually adds value to the property and rewards you with energy-saving shade, privacy and beauty as opposed to constant mowing, chemical spraying, fertilizer spreading and watering.

If you want to instead go down the wrong path, then sure, go ahead and kill it off with a non-selective herbicide, till up what you got and remove the rocks (have fun with that), level it and then haul in some top soil and then level that. Do soil tests and adjust the pH or add nutrients if necessary. Then order your sod or prepare for the joys of starting a lawn by seed. Not a good time of year to do either by the way.

By the way, if you chose the "right path", you wouldn't have to do anything to the soil.
Just some food for thought.







cittic10 on lawn removal trees native landscaping

I do want some trees, but in the neighborhood I live in newer homes, HOA type place) I can't imagine how my home would fit in as the only woodland property in an area of manicured lawns. Not to mention, too many trees = too much shade for the small bit of a vegetable garden I manage to have despite the objections of my busybody neighbor that it's "unsightly".

[Ted Bear]

I have a "lawn" that is mostly quack and bermuda grass. The fescue that the landscaper put in after the yard was graded came up last year, and then fried to death in a hot, dry summer. The quack/cow grass was there all along, and the bermuda came from sourses all aorund me.

This summer i am working on 'bringing in the corners of my lot' by planting larger trees (this autumn) and creating larger mulched areas around them. I am also doing substantial flower and vegetable gardens.

When that is done, it is my intention to kill off everything else ( i already kill it off where i am working now), turn the remaining 'organic' matter into the soil to a depth of 4-6" and add additional organic material ( a premixed creation of horse manure, mulch, compst and sand). I will turn/till this in, and then seed with fescue (zone 6). I expect weeds will emerge from the tilling and will treat them with a surface apllication (like scotts weed and feed).

I don't think you need to till to 18", and i am curious why someone here suggests not to till at all? (Turning up old weed seeds?) Grass will grow in anything, but it needs a chance to get started. Once it is going it needs to be fed, and watered, and mowed regularly so that you are only taking a little off each time. Leave the clippings where they fall.

That's my plan. There are opinions all over the place. Only one thing crosses over all suggestions: it is a lot of work to have a great lawn.

[HB2HSV]

Originally Posted by TimR76

Why no tilling? If the soil is compacted, and you need to amend it, how will anything penetrate if you don't break it up first?

I think if you till, you'll just uncover all the weed seeds in the soil and give them a chance to sprout. You'll end up with MORE weeds instead.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by TimR76

After a year in our new home, we have decided that our sparse, weedy lawn just needs to be re-done. I think the problem is that, in classic fashion, the builder probably made off with the actual topsoil. The soil in our flowerbeds against the house isn't bad, but right at the edge where it touches the lawn you can see it trail off into a light brown, clay/silt mix with a lot of rocks. It looks like they trucked in some nice topsoil in the flowerbeds but that's about it.

So - I have a few steps to follow.

First, I need to get rid of the old lawn. Since I have almost 3/4 of an acre, how would I best accomplish this? Using a chemical like Roundup to kill EVERYTHING in the lawn (besides trees etc of course) and start over? Or use a sod cutter?

Second, I need to amend the soil. I would like to bring in some bulk compost and composted manure, and till it in to a depth of about 18" or so - there are no large trees or other things that I could damage (just a few small trees I can till around), but what kind of machine would I need to do this with? I want to bring in compost to maybe a 6 - 9" depth and really work it in.

Third, replant the lawn.

Any advice? Am I on the right track? I thought of just buying straight topsoil but the cost is outrageous for a lot this large if I actually want something deep enough to plant anything in.

First of all, wait until September to plant grass. I have always tilled the soil before I planted grass. What you need to do is get an idea of how much topsoil you have. It sounds like you don't have much. Dig a hole and see how the layers of soil change.

Tilling to a depth of 18" will give you worse soil than you have now. You will probably get into hard clay and shale. I would spread compost as you mentioned and then rent a rototiller. I would till the soil enough to mix the compost with the existing surface. If you don't have much top soil, don't go more than a few inches deep.

Also, test the soil for Ph level. You will probably need to add lime. Till the lime and fertilizer into the surface soil. Rake out the rocks and old grass. Seed heavily with a spreader and cover with straw. Water daily unless it rains. Watering is probably the most important thing to do. Water in the morning and keep watering until the grass is several inches high. When I have been unsuccessful with planting grass, it was because it didn't get enough water.

[no kudzu]

when you disturb the soil(till) you expose many latent weed seeds. When I start a new bed or lawn I do till in amendments - manure, nature's helper, lime if needed, lots of other things. THEN I just sit and watch all the weed come up. They will believe me and to plant good things and then mulch is IMO asking for trouble. Be patent and let the weed seeds do their thing, then kill them, till them under or pick them, determined by how big an area you have. NOW plant your goodies, mulch and watch it take off.

The above is mostly for beds. For my customers who wanted to start from scratch with a new lawn I always recommended sod after proper soil prep. it will be costly but not as costly as doing it over and over again with seed, dealing with all the weeds, etc.

PS has you ever tilled up soil for a lawn, spread seed and then watered it in and then forget and step up to your knees in soft soil? only takes one time for you to think "Why didn't I just put down sod?"

Sod properly laid will be worth the effort and expense.