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Old 02-08-2008, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,238 posts, read 8,753,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitram View Post
Explain how putting rocks into the bottom of the pot is detrimental to the plant.
If mother nature has rocks in the soil, is that detrimental. I thought rocks helped with drainage and air circulation to prevent rot, fungus and other problems.
I was referring to putting rocks/sand/etc in the bottom of a planting hole in the ground or anywhere in a planting hole for that matter, not a pot. The links explain why it is bad to add rocks/sand/etc. to "improve drainage" in clay soils. Read them if you have further questions.

Mother Nature doesn't put anything in a pot. Humans put things in pots.

Mother Nature also doesn't mix sand, gravel, sawdust, compost, gypsum or coffee with clay soil. It's can be very good to put organic mulches ON TOP of clay soils. This mimics what we are taking away from the soil when we rake up all the leaves, pick up all the branches, put in lawns, scrape away top soil to build new buildings, etc.

Last edited by Art123; 02-08-2008 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 02-09-2008, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Out there somewhere...a traveling man.
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I was under the impression the OP was refering to pots and not in the natural ground. I know the differences, wanted to hear your explanation.
BTW, soil mixtures/preparations vary around the country due to soil variations. What's done in the Southwest is not necessarily done the same in the North East.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:59 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,238 posts, read 8,753,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitram View Post
I was under the impression the OP was refering to pots and not in the natural ground. I know the differences, wanted to hear your explanation.
BTW, soil mixtures/preparations vary around the country due to soil variations. What's done in the Southwest is not necessarily done the same in the North East.
No, the OP was referring originally to plants in the ground. Hence the title of the thread: "Is it too soon to plant shrubs." Someone else suggested potted plants. This person also recommended amending the soil with gravel or sand if planting shrubs in the ground. This is an old myth.

The OP is also in Massachusetts (which is not in the Southwest), where the soil is most likely to be clay. If he had posted a question about the Southwest, I would not have posted anything as my landscaping experience in desert climates is very limited.

One should do very little to amend clay soils as doing so often creates more problems than it solves. A common myth is that adding sand and/or gravel to clay heps drainage, but my experience and actual scientific experiments show that doing so makes the soil less porous and more similar to concrete than soil. You can add a small amount of organic matter (10-25%) such as compost to amend clay soils.
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Home is where the heart is
15,402 posts, read 28,839,834 times
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Very interesting comments about the gravel. Here's another thing I've always heard, but never understood:

Eliminate all air pockets in the planting hole.

Is this true? And if so, does anyone know what the reason is? It seems logical to me that you'd want air pockets.
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Old 02-09-2008, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,238 posts, read 8,753,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normie View Post
Very interesting comments about the gravel. Here's another thing I've always heard, but never understood:

Eliminate all air pockets in the planting hole.

Is this true? And if so, does anyone know what the reason is? It seems logical to me that you'd want air pockets.
Yes, you want to eliminate air pockets. I usually do it by using the handle end of the shovel to firmly (yet not too firm) poke around the outside of the root ball after you have filled the hole about halfway or two thirds, and then again after the hole is filled. Some people do it by watering at that same time, then filling the rest of the hole, but I am usually planting a lot of plants and don't want to deal with the hose until everything is in the ground.

There are two reasons. One is that roots won't grow into air pockets, only soil. The other reason is that the air pockets eventually collapse when it rains, or when you water, causing the soil level to settle. And if there is a lot of air, the soil level can sink around root ball - below the level you want for the root system to grow properly. Sometimes you can't see this happening below the mulch.

The gravel and sand problem is with clay soils, BTW.

Last edited by Art123; 02-09-2008 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Out there somewhere...a traveling man.
44,546 posts, read 61,236,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art123 View Post
One should do very little to amend clay soils as doing so often creates more problems than it solves. A common myth is that adding sand and/or gravel to clay heps drainage, but my experience and actual scientific experiments show that doing so makes the soil less porous and more similar to concrete than soil. You can add a small amount of organic matter (10-25%) such as compost to amend clay soils.
Interesting your comment about clay soils. Here in the Southwest we are predominately in clay soil conditions and in school here we were taught that clay soils lock up all nutrients and that they need to be amended with at combination of 1/3 soil 1/3 sand and 1/3 humus products. That this 1/3 combo gives you the ideal loess/loam soil that will grow most anything correctly, including drainage, with a ph factor of 5.8-6.2. All you need then is to add gypsum or soil sulfer, iron or whatever additional micronutrients that is needed for the type of plant(s) you are planting deciding whether they are acidic lovers or on the salty side. Hmmm...
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,238 posts, read 8,753,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitram View Post
Interesting your comment about clay soils. Here in the Southwest we are predominately in clay soil conditions and in school here we were taught that clay soils lock up all nutrients and that they need to be amended with at combination of 1/3 soil 1/3 sand and 1/3 humus products. That this 1/3 combo gives you the ideal loess/loam soil that will grow most anything correctly, including drainage, with a ph factor of 5.8-6.2. All you need then is to add gypsum or soil sulfer, iron or whatever additional micronutrients that is needed for the type of plant(s) you are planting deciding whether they are acidic lovers or on the salty side. Hmmm...
They used to teach that here years ago, but not anymore. Like I said before, I do not work and have not worked in the Southwest, therefore I do not comment about questions originating from there. The clay here on the east coast is nutrient-rich. The OP lives in Massachusetts, but even sources in Arizona say that your methods are outdated. Also the original post was about shrubs, so these methods are in reference to planting woody plants.

I have provided multiple, legitimate sources to back up my statements from some of the best horticultural Universities in the United States. The appropriate statements are even highlighted for you when possible. One thing people should take from these anonymous forums is that anybody can get on here and say anything. That is why I am providing outside sources - prestigious people with Ph.D's who are current experts in their fields.

This way if someone else is reading this and getting confused as to who is right, they do not have to decide between ART123, southdown and Nitram, they can read legitimate resources, signed by people with Ph.D's behind their name and backed up by scientific research as well as the reputations of their respective Universities.

I'll add some resources from your neck of the woods.

From the University of Arizona:
Backyard Gardener - Soil Amendments for the Garden, March 13, 2002 (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:C4aaM0HZbKsJ:cals.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/soilamendments.html+%22Adding+sand+to+clay+soil+wi ll+create+adobe.%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&clien t=firefox-a - broken link)
The Master Gardener Journal

From NC State:
Improving Your Soil

From Cornell Univeristy:
Gardening Resources, Cornell University

Or how about Washington State:
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths0/Amendments%202.pdf

Or the Question and Answer part of this document from Oregon State:
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/cat.../ec/ec1561.pdf

And my alma mater Colorado State:
Growing Turf on Salt-Affected Sites

And here is another one from Ohio State University:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:Ub6cQy0jMWQJ:hcs.osu.edu/hcs/webgarden/Land/LAND_Oct96.html+%22Adding+sand+to+fine+silt+or+cla y+soils+will+cause+them+to+compact+and+should+be+a voided.%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a (broken link)

It also has been discovered that over amending the soil essentially creates a large pot of non-native, overly enriched soil which can cause the plant roots to be "pot-bound," just on a larger scale than they were in the nursery container. Imagine in the sketch below a nice, soft bit of non-native soil around the newly planted shrub surrounded by a dense clay around it. The roots hit that denser clay and treat it like a container by send roots around a circle within the new hole. The plant does great for awhile, but eventually suffers as a "pot-bound" plant in the ground.


And for goodness sake, there is no need to dig huge holes for your plants.

Last edited by Art123; 02-09-2008 at 11:23 PM..
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Out there somewhere...a traveling man.
44,546 posts, read 61,236,501 times
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Are you saying Art123, southdown and nitram are not legitimate sources??This way if someone else is reading this and getting confused as to who is right, they do not have to decide between ART123, southdown and Nitram, they can read legitimate resources, signed by people with Ph.D's behind their name and backed up by scientific research as well as the reputations of their respective Universities.
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Old 02-10-2008, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,238 posts, read 8,753,637 times
Reputation: 2645
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitram View Post
Are you saying Art123, southdown and nitram are not legitimate sources??This way if someone else is reading this and getting confused as to who is right, they do not have to decide between ART123, southdown and Nitram, they can read legitimate resources, signed by people with Ph.D's behind their name and backed up by scientific research as well as the reputations of their respective Universities.
I think the post is pretty clear. If you have something else to add about planting shrubs in Massachusetts, let's hear it.
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Old 02-10-2008, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Aurora Colorado USA
35 posts, read 303,535 times
Reputation: 60
Never try to plant anything until the last frost is over. Any thing you might try to plant until mid March at the soonest is in a dormant state at this time and the only way you could dig in the frozen dirt is with a jack hammer anyway.
Anyone who would be in the market for a new house this time of year would understand seeing a dormant landscape, unless that person has been living in an apartment all their lives.
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