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Old 09-08-2019, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
18,598 posts, read 24,289,759 times
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When I teach some younger person about gardening, I tell them that it's our job as a gardener to channel the plant's energy to do what we want from it.

If a plant is not in the wild, and you are planting it for your own needs/wants - like basil for eating or a shrub for ascetic purposes, that plant is domesticated. Like having goats or chickens or a dog or cat. If you take responsibility for them, and you expect something from them in return - I don't see an issue there.

So, if I plant a seed for a tomato plant and I want maximum tomatoes, I will cut away branches and encourage the "suckers", so I will have more branches that will produce tomatoes. I am controlling how that plant spends it's energy - in a way that will benefit me.

And I feel zero angst over doing so.

When I used to raise pigs - before I became vegan - I gave them a fantastic life with about an acre to run around in, lots of good food, etc. - and then I had them butchered because I had them as a food source. Now I only eat plants and I have no guilt over primping them, hand-pollinating them, pruning them - to serve my own needs.
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:54 PM
 
2,539 posts, read 2,561,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
*shrugs* I don't know.

What I DO know, is that beings are clearly sentient that humans have denied are sentient.
I only consider claims of sentience or non-sentience from scientists (i.e., true scientists . . . not pseudo-scientists or those not scrupulously following the scientific method of inquiry and investigation . . . not from any individual just expressing their "gut feelings" or "personal pontifications" about whatever matters. But, even in the case of accepted and qualified scientists, I don't simply take ANY single scientist's word for it as to whatever claim or theory they offer up as truth; any claim(s) or pontifications by ANY person or party must be vetted by the scientific community at-large and over an extended-enough period of time in order to be seriously vetted for reliability and credibility of the particular assertions made. Hence, even if Albert Einstein or Carl Sagan or Neil DeGrasse Tyson made claims in the realm of physics, it shouldn't just be accepted right-off-the-bat as true just because it is them saying it (for ALL humans, being human and hence not being perfect infallible beings, can make errors). They themselves would individually and collectively agree with this approach to scientific claims that I just stated here and would say that all claims of scientific truth must be vetted by all others who are truly qualified to do so (peer-reviewed, worked on to see if the results of the original offerers of the ideas or findings can be replicated and then replicated again and again and again, et al).

Who of any credibility whatsoever would ever claim that an octopus or a crow is not sentient??? You can even directly inspect and observe each of these beings from a distance and even close up and plainly see that they have eyes that see, they actively respond behaviorally to events or stimuli presented to them, they can be tested and shown to be responsive to human probing and testing, et al. They can be observed in their natural habitats and day-to-day lives and clearly demonstrate themselves to be living SENTIENT beings. No ifs, ands, or buts. Only an utter imbecile would claim otherwise. A crow is as much a sentient being (a bird) as is a parakeet or canary or eagle or pigeon or parrot. And an octupus (a sea creature) is as much a sentient being as are other sea creatures such as eels, turtles, clams, fish, and so on. ANYONE that would deny their sentience is not and cannot be a true (viable and credible) blologist/zoologist. It would be like me claiming that what everyone observes as a dog (e.g, a German Shepard or a poodle or chihuahua) is actually a turtle or a dolphin or a protozoa. It is so utterly plain and obvious that the observed German Shepard or poodle or chihuahua is a canine (a dog).

For any person(s) or party(ies) claiming that plants are living sentient beings (which may or may not be true -- or it may be true in some cases but not in other cases), it must be establshed as true or not true by scrupulously following the scientific method . . . not simply offering up as fact what is actually based on mere pet notions or gut feelings or mental pontifications entertained by laypersons.

Last edited by UsAll; 09-08-2019 at 09:09 PM..
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Old 09-08-2019, 11:02 PM
 
208 posts, read 94,655 times
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New research is finding that trees do in fact communicate with each other.

"A revolution has been taking place in the scientific understanding of trees":

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ees-180968084/
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Old 09-08-2019, 11:42 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
7,795 posts, read 4,227,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreSnowForMe View Post
When I teach some younger person about gardening, I tell them that it's our job as a gardener to channel the plant's energy to do what we want from it.
I do keep and maintain some bonsai trees and my wife was once interested in Feng Shui and I practiced Tai Chi. It occurred to me that these Asian concepts (Chinese and Japanese) seemed to be in conflict. Wikipedia says "The ancient Chinese described qi as "life force". They believed it permeated everything and linked their surroundings together. Qi was also linked to the flow of energy around and through the body, forming a cohesive functioning unit. By understanding the rhythm and flow of qi, they believed they could guide exercises and treatments to provide stability and longevity." By severe pruning and wiring of bonsai trees over many years it seemed that I was impeding or interfering with the qi life force of the trees. Bonsai trees are stunted and not allowed to express their genetic and cultural fullness except in miniaturized and artificially imitated forms. Yet many Feng Shui practitioners will happily display a bonsai tree in a specific place in a house as a conduit for qi.

I never really resolved the conflict but it occurred to me that bonsai trees exist in the natural environment and are greatly admired in their natural state. That admiration is the basis of the practice of bonsai. I probably do less wiring and pruning now and I'm more selective in choosing trees than I was.
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Old 09-08-2019, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
18,162 posts, read 22,052,083 times
Reputation: 25412
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildflowers27 View Post
New research is finding that trees do in fact communicate with each other.

"A revolution has been taking place in the scientific understanding of trees":

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ees-180968084/
I once read that when someone enters a forest with a chainsaw, that the trees can tremble over seeing it.

I also read, that in India, where trees are sacred, that to build a road, the road will detour around the tree, to save it.

Ever see the movie Harold and Maude with Bud Cort and Ruth Gordon. That movie played for 2 years at the Edina Theatre in Minneapolis, it was that popular in the early 70's. Anyway, in the movie, Maude/Ruth Gordon spots a tree in a big pot on the main street of a town in CA, she and Bud Cort hoist it into the back of a stolen pick-up and take it out to the country and re-plant it, all done out of sympathy.

I live in a 55+ community and I've been caught talking to my plants early mornings, and I've been surprised how many have said that they talk to their plants as well. So I'm not a freak!
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:54 AM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
10,432 posts, read 8,311,231 times
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I feel sorry for them when I have to transplant them or change their spot. You think "oh my God, I'm totally going to kill them". I even cringe when I yank them off and see their roots.

Thankfully, most plants that I have transplanted have survived.
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Old 09-09-2019, 03:36 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
18,162 posts, read 22,052,083 times
Reputation: 25412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook View Post
I don't feel sorry for sculpted shrubberies... they're obviously very loved.

But I do have a hard time thinning my vegetables. They all look so hopeful. I can never yanka young baby corn plant out of the ground.

Asylums often have lovely gardens.
It depends on the shrub. A neighbor of mine has 3 sages and he likes to form them into globes. But when it comes to oleanders, that's another issue, as they're destined to be brushy trees soaring to 20 feet high. If you walk around the perimeter of our community with oleanders, there's a great many dead stalks, brittle enough to break off with your hands. And some of the other cut shrubs seem to be quite happy, those that are only destined to reach 7-8 feet tall.

Plants seem to have different personalities. I had this beautiful Russian sage in front of my house, it didn't do anything for months, then took off like a missile. One branch was overreaching, covering up my oregano, so I decided to just cut that one branch, and 3 days later the entire plant died. Was it angry with me, spiteful, who knows!! I was going to transplant it to open territory, but I've done that before, and it died with the transplant.

I planted 3 bright red verbenas, spaced 3 feet apart, they all seemed to be doing well, and then, out of nowhere, one died and the other looks like it's dying and the remaining one is doing beautifully. ??????? Perhaps the one that died concluded: I don't want to do through another hot summer in Tucson again?

Too late in the summer, what was I thinking! I planted a white verbena close to the road and it's struggling like the dickens. Every day I go out and rub its small leaves, talk to it, like: I really think you should go into a pot, temporarily, or do you want to fight it out? I really feel sorry for it, and I'm surprised it even has the energy to produce white flowers. That poor little thing is working overtime just to stay alive!
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:36 AM
 
Location: British Columbia ~🌄 ☀️ ♥ 🍁 ♥ ☀️🌄~
8,240 posts, read 7,148,219 times
Reputation: 16907
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsAll View Post


........ pontifications ......

Ahem! What's that criticism you're saying about pontifications? I thought I was the most pontificating of pontificators around here but man, oh man! Indeed, your pontificating has got my humble pontification skills beat hands down. LOL - not only have you have done yourself pompously proud as a pontificator, you have utterly outdone all of us in the pontification department and put all of us very thoroughly in our oh so very humble places.

Hie thee off to a book store and get yourself that book that Wildflower27 told you about. The Hidden Life of Trees written by Peter Wohlleben.


Seriously, get the book. Read it twice or more if you need to, to make sure it all sinks in and you have fully comprehended it. Fully. Be prepared to be humbled. THEN you will be in a position to come back and pontificate to your heart's delight about plants. Right now you are not.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-life-of-trees

Here, read this article too:
https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wi...1002/bes2.1443

.

Last edited by Zoisite; 09-09-2019 at 04:54 AM..
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:05 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
3,230 posts, read 1,264,107 times
Reputation: 7162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
I suppose the OP would not be happy about my bonsai collection, about 75 trees. I have used minimal wire, but a lot of directional pruning on many of them over many years, even grinding parts to appear as natural deadwood as you see in the forest, especially at high elevations. No, I don’t feel sorry for them, in fact they are getting a pretty easy life with constant protection from the elements, fertilizer, and regular watering.

But those nasty Orientals like binding feet too.


To those who are critical of the sensitivities of some of us in our feelings towards plants, I would suggest that the real theme here is respect for life. Those who know me from the "Green Living" forum know that I'm absolutely brutal as a Constitutional Conservative when it comes to the Law of the Jungle: there is no right or wrong in Nature, only survival. But even the savage Sioux hunter would sing a prayer of respect after a kill, thanking the bison for sacrificing its life that the man & his family might live.


BTW- trees actually don't like it when you hug them. You're stepping on their roots.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Loudon, TN
6,486 posts, read 5,287,018 times
Reputation: 22482
Uuuuhmmmmm......no, I don't. They're plants. Do you feel sorry for the wheat that died to make your bread? Do you cry over your salad at night? Or were they killed in a quick and humane manner, so it's okay? What about the grass on your lawn? It suffers horribly as it's beheaded every week, and it's never allowed to grow to its full flower. I have live lettuce imprisoned in a plastic clamshell in my fridge, call Amnesty International!
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