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Old 12-08-2016, 10:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
The bold is interesting as I do remember when Ali visited his "ancestral" town!

I reviewed the link you shared and honestly, I don't think it is conclusive that just because the name "Abraham Grady" or "Abe Grady" wasn't found on censuses as Irish means that he wasn't Irish.

Did Ali have a genetic DNA ancestry test performed that showed Irish ancestry? I'll have to look it up later when I need something to do!

But I'll note that many times if a white person married a black person, they were labeled as black or negro or mulatto on a census document. Many of my own ancestors who were inter-racial married couples had that done more than once, one or both were either labeled at white or negro/black and then the next one would have a different color/race listed. So census info can be wrong for multiple years. Also, we don't know if he went by another name or if Abraham was the middle name. I have an ancestor who I thought was named Nathan but found out he went by his middle name of Bailey and it took me years to find him but sure enough, I did and on every census from 1830 through 1880 (and even on Canadian censuses) he was listed as Bailey and not Nathan except for in 1850. Luckily he was married to the same woman for many years and had a lot of children with non-popular names and so I could trace them once I used Bailey instead of Nathan. What connected the dots for me was getting some deed information for some property he sold in PA an it said Nathan Bailey ____. So I looked up both names and up popped all of information!

I did see that there was an Abe Grady with a death certificate in Kentucky via family search but they did not have an image of it to review. He died in 1922 it stated.

Also, I looked up the tree someone did for the Ali/Clay family and it looked pretty bad lol. So I wouldn't doubt that the Irish thing is incorrect as they had a lot of gaping holes in that tree even with more recent ancestors to Muhammed Ali. But just wanted to point out that many times the race of someone was wrong.

I mentioned that one of my paternal grandmothers has an Irish name. Her own great grandparents, one was born in England and one in Ireland according to info from my cousin who researches this line. They have a lot of documentation on this line as well. Their daughter married a "mulatto" man and on almost every census until the 1940 census, she was also labeled as "mulatto" and later "black/negro" when she was not - she was entirely white. Her parents were immigrants from Europe. On her death certificate, it states she was "white" and lists her parents and where they were born. She was buried by a "black" funeral home though so was mentioned in the "colored" section of a local newspaper with an obit when she died.



I have been told this as well. The father of my great grandmother mentioned above, she had Irish ancestry through her maternal grandmother but "Scots-Irish" or Scottish through her father's line. Her maiden name was Scottish. The Scottish line I also have a lot of information on since that whole family is "really" into genealogical research and have been since the early 1900s. Family repeatedly verify and add to the family tree. It goes back to the 1600s and the immigration of a Scottish man who married a mulatto woman in Colony of Virginia.
The town of Ennis, Co Clare don't want to hear anything about Ali not having a connection there. I'd be interesting if anything turns up. Muhammed Ali was incredibly popular and well liked. He was such a character.
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie20 View Post

Muhammad Ali: Boxer's ancestral Irish town pays tribute after death - BBC News

Not sure how they could have got it so wrong and I was a bit disappointed.
How was it determined that he did not have irish ancestry?

I didn't see anything in the links
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:53 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
How was it determined that he did not have irish ancestry?

I didn't see anything in the links
I was curious too so I did some digging on Ancestry.com - Muhammad Ali's maternal grandfather was John Louis/Lewis Grady b. 1886 in Kentucky (wikipedia claims his surname was O'Grady but I can find no record of this), who's father was supposedly Abe Grady, from Ireland. But records on this family are scarce. The only record of John Louis Grady as a child is the 1900 census in which he's living with his maternal grandparents, the Walkers. He's then missing on the 1910 census and by 1920, he's married. I can't find a record that confirms his father was Abe Grady. However, supposedly John had a sister Elizabeth and on her marriage record it names her parents Abe Grady and Susie Walker. But here again, records are scarce and there's none that say Abe was from Ireland. Abe's death record (below) says birthplace unknown (and says he's black, not white like Wikipedia claims). Granted, I am only looking on Ancestry.com, maybe there are more records out there which aren't available online which confirm everything. But from first glance at the records, there doesn't appear to be any conclusive proof (or even any evidence) that Abe Grady was from Ireland.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/s...rhSource=60281

Assuming that's the correct death record, if you ask me, a black man born in 1850 and living in Kentucky in the 1880s was most probably born a slave in the US, not an Irish immigrant. Not saying it's impossible, but come on, which is more likely to be true: that Abe was a black man born in Ireland in 1850 and he decided to immigrate to Kentucky only 10-20 years after slavery was abolished there, or that he was a former slave?
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Old 12-08-2016, 02:27 PM
 
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I feel it's creepy to claim to be something just to get benefits, it's like you are not genuinely proud of who you are, and you acting like some sell out wannabe. And as for people being shocked when native american does not show up in their DNA, well...maybe the genealogy testing companies don't have much pure native american samples to go by, also, it could be that you just aren't native american. But when a family story is passed down from generation to generation and it's your own family telling you, of course you would believe it.

I guess the new 'in thing' with ancestry is to not be 100% white, especially with the stigma of ancestors owning slaves and what not. The past, it is what it is. Our ancestors contribute to us being alive today, they do not contribute to what kind of person we are and how we treat others. But on being white, there is a lot more to us than what was done to native americans & african americans, there is a lot of variety with our cultures and we don't all come from Europe (hello Russia, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, Norway, Iceland, etc.)
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
How was it determined that he did not have irish ancestry?

I didn't see anything in the links
Apparently there is no Abe Grady born in Ennis. This article says that his links to Clare are quite solid but I have my doubts. Hopefully it will be clarified.


Just how Irish was Muhammad Ali?


Celebrity Ethnicity have said he has some English but no Irish and they are quite thorough in checking when the information is available. Please see info bolded below.


"Muhammad’s maternal great-grandfather, Abe Grady, is often said to have been an Irish immigrant, from County Clare, who moved to Kentucky, but this is evidently incorrect. No Irish-born people named Abe or Abraham Grady appear on any Kentucky censuses. The Abe Grady who was Muhammad’s maternal great-grandfather was almost certainly an African-American man, born in Kentucky."


Muhammad Ali


It is actually quite difficult to trace Irish ancestry as you have to know what town and parish your ancestor is from. There is also the problem of many Irish having very common first and surnames. I've encountered this problem with my grandfather even though I knew where he was from. I had to get a professional genealogist to find his parents as my mother did not know their names and he died when she was young.


It is quite noticeable that many Americans state they have both Irish ancestry and Native American and when their family history is researched it is found to be inaccurate. I think this is not due to them being dishonest but rather due to family folklore. I also think many Americans sometimes confuse Scots-Irish with being Irish. The vast majority of Irish are Catholics so if you have Protestant origins it is much more likely that you have Scots-Irish ancestry although it is possible that people might have changed their religion but it is a definite clue. Also if you are from the South it is much more likely to be Scots-Irish.


Some examples of the above are Chuck Norris who claims he was half Irish and half Native American. He doesn't have either ancestry. Another well-known one is Megan Fox, she actually is mostly English like Chuck with some Scots-Irish and German. Megan does have possibly 1/256 Native American.


There are others that were thought to have Irish ancestry but it turned out incorrect. Even Barack Obama only has a very small amount of Irish and his English ancestry is much greater.
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:18 PM
 
2,673 posts, read 5,430,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
I was curious too so I did some digging on Ancestry.com - Muhammad Ali's maternal grandfather was John Louis/Lewis Grady b. 1886 in Kentucky (wikipedia claims his surname was O'Grady but I can find no record of this), who's father was supposedly Abe Grady, from Ireland. But records on this family are scarce. The only record of John Louis Grady as a child is the 1900 census in which he's living with his maternal grandparents, the Walkers. He's then missing on the 1910 census and by 1920, he's married. I can't find a record that confirms his father was Abe Grady. However, supposedly John had a sister Elizabeth and on her marriage record it names her parents Abe Grady and Susie Walker. But here again, records are scarce and there's none that say Abe was from Ireland. Abe's death record (below) says birthplace unknown (and says he's black, not white like Wikipedia claims). Granted, I am only looking on Ancestry.com, maybe there are more records out there which aren't available online which confirm everything. But from first glance at the records, there doesn't appear to be any conclusive proof (or even any evidence) that Abe Grady was from Ireland.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/s...rhSource=60281

Assuming that's the correct death record, if you ask me, a black man born in 1850 and living in Kentucky in the 1880s was most probably born a slave in the US, not an Irish immigrant. Not saying it's impossible, but come on, which is more likely to be true: that Abe was a black man born in Ireland in 1850 and he decided to immigrate to Kentucky only 10-20 years after slavery was abolished there, or that he was a former slave?
Thank you. Very interesting.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:10 AM
 
3,137 posts, read 2,684,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie20 View Post

It is quite noticeable that many Americans state they have both Irish ancestry and Native American and when their family history is researched it is found to be inaccurate. I think this is not due to them being dishonest but rather due to family folklore. I also think many Americans sometimes confuse Scots-Irish with being Irish. The vast majority of Irish are Catholics so if you have Protestant origins it is much more likely that you have Scots-Irish ancestry although it is possible that people might have changed their religion but it is a definite clue. Also if you are from the South it is much more likely to be Scots-Irish.


Some examples of the above are Chuck Norris who claims he was half Irish and half Native American. He doesn't have either ancestry. Another well-known one is Megan Fox, she actually is mostly English like Chuck with some Scots-Irish and German. Megan does have possibly 1/256 Native American.

.
I've noticed the same thing with Americans claiming to have both Irish and Native American ancestry. It's interesting that Chuck Norris would claim to be half Irish and half Native American, because in order for that to happen, one parent would have to be 100% Irish and the other parent 100% Native American. For him to be 50/50. How could he be mistaken about that? He's fairly dumb if he went around claiming to be half of each. It would have been more okay for him to say "I have some of these ancestries on both sides of the family".
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,701 posts, read 79,356,279 times
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We have this legend in our family. My brother did extensive research and found nothing. We are descended from Davy Crockett's grandpa though - that is almost as exciting as a Cherokee princess.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:35 AM
 
Location: North Idaho
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I suspect it is because there are many things about Native American culture which are very desirable to claim as your own characteristics.

Stealthy stalker who can track a snake across bare rock, master hunter, master survival skills, ferocious warrior, determination, overcoming great odds without giving up, deep link to nature, one of the world's best horsemen. Cultures of generosity.

They even wore great costumes and had fascinating religions. Some of them had strong links to the mystical. Some of the tribes produced gorgeous art.

So what's not to like? It's so easy to claim parts of that warrior culture to be a part of your own genetic makeup.

I can easily see that a "he's so good in the woods, he must be part Indian" could end up passed down through the family that he was actually part Indian.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
We have this legend in our family. My brother did extensive research and found nothing. We are descended from Davy Crockett's grandpa though - that is almost as exciting as a Cherokee princess.
But, did you do a DNA test? Because that might turn up something, even if the family tree does not.


Many Native Americans who wanted to integrate into white culture, took Christian names. A common name for native women who were Christianized was Mary. Of course, that's a common name in general, but if you have a lot of women in your family tree with the first name Mary, it could mean something.
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