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Old 08-04-2017, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Illinois
3,168 posts, read 4,462,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naadarien View Post
I am not sure why we are not communicating, but "how a haplogroup is determined?" is essentially the question I am asking. Knowing how the process actually, technically works, helps explain and validate his results. The unfortunate reality is there isn't a lot of data out there to explain what I can only assume is a highly technical process. It is going to require that I dig into educational materials, and NIH studies, and human genome project documentation to find what that methodology is.

I will confess that I had hoped some genetic scientist had figured out how to distill that information into some description that could be consumed by the masses, but efforts into finding out this methodology has run into pretty much the same brick wall I see here. The vast majority of people don't really know how haplogroups are determined because that isn't a commonly shared detail, and merely saying that haplogroups are determined by deriving haplotypes from a few SNPs has clearly been plenty of info for the lion share of people.

I was always that kid who asked why, why, why until I bugged people to death, so that answer doesn't cut it. I am also an engineer and at the root of it all, I like knowing HOW things work, and it never really has mattered how technical the answer is. I like knowing it. There is likely an explanation to how ALL haplogroups are generally developed for y-DNA, and when I find it, I'll be happy to post it. Someone else must have asked this question once or twice. I'm not special in the question asking department.

Thanks for your help.
IF you are looking for answers then why not take one of those full Y-DNA sequence tests? Or a FULL DNA SEQUENCE, PERIOD. I do believe that they exist.

From my understanding, do they (Y DNA haplogroups) take longer to mutate and are deemed more "accurate?"

My short opinion here is you will learn that your paternal haplogroup is what it is. Whatever useful (or not) info from that is what it is. Your other ancestors are represented by your autosomal DNA.

Again, I only use mtDNA plus matches on autosomal to trace maternal lines. On both my maternal and paternal lines, being a female and at times considering my X chromosome. Being a woman....
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
25,136 posts, read 30,034,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naadarien View Post
Say what now?

Seriously. I think 23 & Me has lost their minds.

My dad is 81% SSA, 17.1% Euro and the rest native american.

His father's dead, but his mother's DNA test came up as 83% SSA so his dad has to be in that ballpark too.

I have tried to get them to explain to me how it is that my dad was assigned the R-L21 haplogroup when both of his parents are american blacks and greater than 80% SSA, but nothing they are telling me is making sense. His maternal haplogroup BTW was L3f1b which matches my grandmother's results perfectly.

Since there is no question of my father's parentage, LOL, could someone take a stab at explaining why it worked out this way?

Don't get me wrong. I do think that haplogroup is accurate for that 17% sliver in my dad's result, but I can't understand how that one piece is the dominant paternal haplogroup.

Any ideas?
It is not the "dominant paternal haplogroup", it is your father's only haplogroup specifically for the straight paternal line.

Your father (and you) will share that haplogroup with many other men who are not in your direct line, because it describes populations, not individuals.

Here is what 23AndMe has to say about its Y Haplogroup reports.

https://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/up...p-assignments/

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/...ogroups-report

Each male in your tree will also have his own haplogroup. To find out your maternal grandfather's you could have a male relative from your mother's side of the family tested.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Illinois
3,168 posts, read 4,462,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
It is not the "dominant paternal haplogroup", it is your father's only haplogroup specifically for the straight paternal line.

Your father (and you) will share that haplogroup with many other men who are not in your direct line, because it describes populations, not individuals.

Here is what 23AndMe has to say about its Y Haplogroup reports.

https://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/up...p-assignments/

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/...ogroups-report

Each male in your tree will also have his own haplogroup. To find out your maternal grandfather's you could have a male relative from your mother's side of the family tested.

The only other way that I can describe it is OP, these are "your people" and from "your tribe"SMH.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:25 PM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 3 days ago)
 
5,806 posts, read 8,574,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naadarien View Post
Thanks, but I understand all of this, but still none of this addresses how the haplogroup gets assigned.
Naadarien,

A man can only inherit one Y-DNA (from his Y chromosome.) A person can have thousands of male ancestors, but only the Y chromosome of one of those thousands gets passed down the generations. The Y-DNA inherited by your father (and by you too) is from that guy who's Y-DNA got passed down. Forget all the other men in your ancestral tree, you only get one Y-DNA and that's the guy.

There's really no way around this.

People don't inherit DNA from all of their ancestors in the ancestral tree, which to me at least means those people who's DNA you don't have in you are not really your ancestors (even though they are on your tree, you simply got zero DNA from them.) To put this another way, those people left out of your genetic make up are paper relatives, not truly blood relatives to you personally. Apply this logic to the Y-DNA and there you get your answer.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
9,254 posts, read 14,286,242 times
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Maybe a visual will help? I'm simplifying this of course - this may not be your dad's exact ancestry but it shows how he can be predominantly SSA with a British Isles Y halogroup. The highlighted line is the direct paternal line that the Y haplogroup follows. This is the ONLY line that carries a Y-haplogroup, the other branches do not because they all go through a female at some point. If that direct male line eventually goes back to a white/British man, then your Y haplogroup will from the British Isles, regardless of where the rest of your branches are from.

Basically, the rest of your branches (which are where your ethnicity percentages came from) are completely irrelevant to the Y line/haplogroup - they have nothing to do with one another.
Attached Thumbnails
81% sub-saharan african with a British Isles haplogroup-britishhaplogroup.png  
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:53 AM
 
Location: The High Desert
8,128 posts, read 4,432,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naadarien View Post
I actually would find it pretty amazing if our first american ancestor in my dad's line was from the British Isles. Thanksgiving would be the best. I can hear my aunts now. LOL!!
Well, it is what it is...a novelty. A useless piece of ancient information about some nameless guy 10,000 years ago sitting beside a campfire with his family eating a goat. Those were tough people. They were not wimps or whiners. They made everything they used or needed. They were survivors. What better time to share that information than at Thanksgiving with the family sitting around the table eating Turkey? (I think goat is less popular these days).

My maternal haplogroup came to me down my mother's direct line recently living in County Kerry, in Ireland. That's as far west as you can be in Europe (Dingle Peninsula). About 8,000 years ago the family ancestor was sitting at a campfire eating a goat in Anatolia...about as far west as you can be in Asia. She probably killed it, cleaned it, and cooked it. Somehow a female descendant managed to get to Ireland and have a bunch of babies. End of story.

Genetic mutations happen. Somebody you see every day could have a slightly tweaked paternal haplogroup variant that produces a new branch. Maybe 2,000 years from now there will be thousands of people with that new haplogroup. It doesn't mean very much.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:23 PM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 3 days ago)
 
5,806 posts, read 8,574,306 times
Reputation: 4542
Another way to look at it is that without that Y haplogroup, the OP would had never been born, neither would his father, his grandfather; his great grandfather, etc.

In genetics the slightest change can have significant consequences. It definitely would make the current reality something very different.

Sooner or later we have to come to peace with our genetic reality. Feeling uncomfortable with this or even hating whatever the DNA is or a part of it means one thing: the person doesn't feel at ease with who he or she is. We don't have a choice in these things, the best is to simply accept it and move on. We are what we are and our ancestors were who they were. Nothing will change that. To love ourselves is to accept all the people that came before us and made it possible for us to even exist.
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
25,136 posts, read 30,034,331 times
Reputation: 31239
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Naadarien,

A man can only inherit one Y-DNA (from his Y chromosome.) A person can have thousands of male ancestors, but only the Y chromosome of one of those thousands gets passed down the generations. The Y-DNA inherited by your father (and by you too) is from that guy who's Y-DNA got passed down. Forget all the other men in your ancestral tree, you only get one Y-DNA and that's the guy.

There's really no way around this.

People don't inherit DNA from all of their ancestors in the ancestral tree, which to me at least means those people who's DNA you don't have in you are not really your ancestors (even though they are on your tree, you simply got zero DNA from them.) To put this another way, those people left out of your genetic make up are paper relatives, not truly blood relatives to you personally. Apply this logic to the Y-DNA and there you get your answer.
Good gosh, no. They are still your ancestors even if you personally do not have a single tiny segment of DNA from them. Without them, you would not exist. You are blood of their blood, forever.
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:24 AM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 3 days ago)
 
5,806 posts, read 8,574,306 times
Reputation: 4542
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Good gosh, no. They are still your ancestors even if you personally do not have a single tiny segment of DNA from them. Without them, you would not exist. You are blood of their blood, forever.
If you did had 'their blood,' they would appear in your genetics even if they make up less than 1% of your genome, and not just on paper.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:54 AM
AFP
 
7,238 posts, read 4,690,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
If you did had 'their blood,' they would appear in your genetics even if they make up less than 1% of your genome, and not just on paper.
A person not inheriting large blocks of autosomes from a specific ancestor 9 generations past does not equal not inheriting any "blood" DNA from that specific ancestor. Large blocks of autosomes are part of the picture they don't tell the full story.

This is an interesting link

ttps://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/
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