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Old 08-07-2017, 09:03 PM
 
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The Queen Mother (born 1900) was born in her family's ancestral home since 1375, the famous Glamis Castle. She is a descendant of five Scottish peers and can trace her ancestry to the middle ages and Lord Glamis.

1st Earl of Kinghorn
1st Earl of Panmure
1st Earl of Dunbar
1st Earl of Somerset (1613-1645)
1st Lord Kinloss

But her last "pure" Scottish ancestors were 9 and 10 generations before her (three apiece), so her ethnicity is calculated as
3/2^9+3/2^10 or less than 1% Scottish, roughly the same percentage as her descent from a single Dutch ancestor 7 generations ago (1/2^7).

Her Dutch ancestor (1649-1709) was Hans Willem Bentinck 1st Earl of Portland who followed William III from Orange when he took the British throne.

My question is would the historical and noble connections make the Queen Mother Scottish, even without the blood connections?
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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The Queen Mother was not born in Glamis Castle.

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother | Glamis Castle | Angus, Scotland

"Some mystery still surrounds exactly where Elizabeth was born, but we know she was not born at Glamis as is sometimes mistakenly assumed. It was long thought she was born at St. Paul’s Walden Bury, but is now believed that she was born in London, perhaps at the family’s town house."

Most of the nobility have fairly mixed backgrounds, having intermarried among nobility all over Europe.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
Most of the nobility have fairly mixed backgrounds, having intermarried among nobility all over Europe.
The royals certainly intermarried all over Europe. The nobility of the UK tended to marry within their own class inside the Islands of Britain and Ireland, or possibly northern France. The Queen Mother only had one Dutch relative who accompanied William III as he took the throne in an effort to end Catholicism in the monarchy.

But as I said, despite the Queen Mother's extensive peerage in Scotland, there had not been a pure Scot in her family for 9 generations. So by blood, she was less than 1% Scottish.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Illinois
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I personally define my own by the culture(s) that I follow.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichele View Post
I personally define my own by the culture(s) that I follow.
I think that is a very good point , CMichele. I suppose most of us do to some extent. My grandparents are in order Spanish, Hungarian, Syrian, and a mix of French and German.

Because my Hungarian grandmother died before I was born, I only had glancing contact with the Hungarians. My grandmother who was a mix of French and German, but born in the USA, had not really retained many cultural traditions from her family. So ethnically, I think of myself as Spanish and Syrian since those cultures I grew up with. But I am not really measuring by blood content since all four groups are about equal.

The geneologist Reitwiesner had this comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Addams Reitwiesner
Speaking of that, there's a complication when trying to quantify someone's ethnic ancestry.

One of the major underlying assumptions about ethnic ancestry is that of genetic ancestry.

For example, the ethnic ancestry of adoptive parents has no bearing on the ethnic ancestry of their adoptive children.

Another place where genetic ancestry becomes significant is in cases of adulterine bastardy, where the mother's husband is not the genetic father of the child.
So back to the Queen Mother with 0.879% Scottish genetic ancestry 9 or 10 generations ago (six "pure blooded" Scottish ancestors 3/2^9 + 3/2^10). She also had

0.781% Dutch (one "pure blooded" ancestor 7 generations ago or 1/2^7)
3.125% Irish (one "pure blooded" ancestor 5 generations ago or 1/2^5)
5.176% French (four "pure blooded" ancestors between 5 and 10 generations ago, one woman in twice because of two husbands: 1/2^10 + 2/2^9 +1/2^6+ 1/2^5)
12.500% Anglo-Irish (two "pure blooded" ancestors 4 generations ago 2/2^4)

Anglo-Irish was invented by WARGS to account for people who lived in Ireland, but whose genetic background was English or Welsh.

Those five categories with 14 ancestors add up to 22.461%. The remaining "pure blooded" ancestors were English so 77.539% adds up to 100%.

So the Queen Mother is genetically almost entirely English, but nearly every other category is higher than Scottish In particular Irish percentage is based on a single ancestor out of 2046 total.

But nearly all of the nobility in her background is Scottish.

NOTE: "Pure blood" is a convenient way of saying that either the ethnic background is unknown, or too insignificant to be measured. Insignificant is measured by cutting off the tree after a given number of generations. In the case of the Queen Mother we are cutting off after 10 generations, so everyone in that generation is by definition considered "pure"

If you go far enough back through the generations, you find the oddest ancestry.
  1. Vlad Dracula
  2. Ladislas Dracula
  3. Ladislas Dracula de Sentesti
  4. Borbara Bilki Dracula de Sentesti
  5. Vanesca Kornis
  6. Gáspár Kendeffy
  7. Gábor Kendeffy +1661/
  8. Gáspár Kendeffy
  9. Ágnes Kendeffy
  10. Gergely Inczédy +1816
  11. Ágnes Inczédy ca 1788-ca 1856
  12. Claudine Rhédey, Gräfin von Hohenstein 1812-1841
  13. Franz von Württemberg, Herzog von Teck 1837-1900
  14. Mary Cambridge, Prinzessin von Teck 1867-1953
  15. George VI Windsor, King of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 1895-1952
  16. Elizabeth II Windsor, Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 1926-

Last edited by PacoMartin; 08-11-2017 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
I think that is a very good point , CMichele. I suppose most of us do to some extent. My grandparents are in order Spanish, Hungarian, Syrian, and a mix of French and German.

Because my Hungarian grandmother died before I was born, I only had glancing contact with the Hungarians. My grandmother who was a mix of French and German, but born in the USA, had not really retained many cultural traditions from her family. So ethnically, I think of myself as Spanish and Syrian since those cultures I grew up with. But I am not really measuring by blood content since all four groups are about equal.

The geneologist Reitwiesner had this comment.


So back to the Queen Mother with 0.879% Scottish genetic ancestry 9 or 10 generations ago (six "pure blooded" Scottish ancestors 3/2^9 + 3/2^10). She also had

0.781% Dutch (one "pure blooded" ancestor 7 generations ago or 1/2^7)
3.125% Irish (one "pure blooded" ancestor 5 generations ago or 1/2^5)
5.176% French (four "pure blooded" ancestors between 5 and 10 generations ago, one woman in twice because of two husbands: 1/2^10 + 2/2^9 +1/2^6+ 1/2^5)
12.500% Anglo-Irish (two "pure blooded" ancestors 4 generations ago 2/2^4)

Anglo-Irish was invented by WARGS to account for people who lived in Ireland, but whose genetic background was English or Welsh.

Those five categories with 14 ancestors add up to 22.461%. The remaining "pure blooded" ancestors were English so 77.539% adds up to 100%.

So the Queen Mother is genetically almost entirely English, but nearly every other category is higher than Scottish In particular Irish percentage is based on a single ancestor out of 2046 total.

But nearly all of the nobility in her background is Scottish.

NOTE: "Pure blood" is a convenient way of saying that either the ethnic background is unknown, or too insignificant to be measured. Insignificant is measured by cutting off the tree after a given number of generations. In the case of the Queen Mother we are cutting off after 10 generations, so everyone in that generation is by definition considered "pure"

If you go far enough back through the generations, you find the oddest ancestry.
  1. Vlad Dracula
  2. Ladislas Dracula
  3. Ladislas Dracula de Sentesti
  4. Borbara Bilki Dracula de Sentesti
  5. Vanesca Kornis
  6. Gáspár Kendeffy
  7. Gábor Kendeffy +1661/
  8. Gáspár Kendeffy
  9. Ágnes Kendeffy
  10. Gergely Inczédy +1816
  11. Ágnes Inczédy ca 1788-ca 1856
  12. Claudine Rhédey, Gräfin von Hohenstein 1812-1841
  13. Franz von Württemberg, Herzog von Teck 1837-1900
  14. Mary Cambridge, Prinzessin von Teck 1867-1953
  15. George VI Windsor, King of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 1895-1952
  16. Elizabeth II Windsor, Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 1926-
By and large, my people are black American. Southern black American.

We follow other cultures but to keep it short and nice, I am southern black American and that culture is what I follow most.. And believe it or not, we DO have culture as black Americans, especially southern black Americans. And it isn't really chitlins and such...
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:42 AM
 
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If you ask three different people how to define ethnicity you're probably going to get three different answers. To me it's a purely cultural concept, my ethnicity is defined by the ancestors that contributed to the values and traditions that my family has today. If an ancestor didn't stick around longer than it took to donate some DNA or fully adopted the culture of some of my other ancestors to the point that nothing of their ancestors' culture was retained by my family then I don't consider whatever their ethnicity was to be any part of mine since it didn't have anything to do with shaping my family's traditions, beliefs, values, etc., or more to the point, me as a person. To me DNA and ethnicity really don't have anything to do with each other. When I occasionally turn over a rock that reveals an ancestor who left no lasting impression on my family's cultural identity it's interesting, but interesting in the same kind of way reading about hominid fossils is interesting. It doesn't feel like anything that affects my personal identity, there's no aha moment where I've found an explanation for family lore or tradition.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:42 PM
 
Location: NC
4,534 posts, read 7,533,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichele View Post
By and large, my people are black American. Southern black American.

We follow other cultures but to keep it short and nice, I am southern black American and that culture is what I follow most.. And believe it or not, we DO have culture as black Americans, especially southern black Americans. And it isn't really chitlins and such...
SO glad someone finally made this point! I am a Brit (White) and have lived in the South since the 70's. It irks me when people who know nothing of Southern Black American culture make silly assumptions which I observe and know from my SBA friends and colleagues, is offensive and cliché.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:23 PM
 
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Not to hijack the thread, but would you mind briefly explaining how southern black American culture differs from other southern American and American culture in general. Thanks in advance.

ETA: Just to clarify, I'm just wondering what SBAs are doing today that's different.

Last edited by winterbird; 08-12-2017 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:31 PM
 
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Etymology of word "ethnic": The classical sense of "peculiar to a race or nation" in English is attested from 1851, a return to the word's original meaning; that of "different cultural groups" is 1935; and that of "racial, cultural or national minority group" is American English 1945.

The word has been used in English from the 1400's but it originally meant "pagan, heathen, one who is not a Christian or Jew".

The large scale intermarriage of cultures didn't happen much until after 1860, so the difference between "ethnicity by blood" or "ethnicity by culture" probably didn't come up very often.

The modern meaning of race as "one of the great divisions of mankind based on physical peculiarities" is from 1774. While it is clear that people regarded each as other as "different" from earliest recorded history, the paradigm of "race" as a quasi scientific concept is relatively recent.

People devote a lot of time differentiating between "racial" differences and "ethnic" differences. Before WWII Arab-Americans spent a lot of effort convincing the US census department that their race was white.

Many people feel that "race" was simply bad 18th century science, and that all divisions should be considered "ethnic" today.
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