U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Genealogy
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 02-18-2018, 12:49 PM
 
Location: 5,400 feet
2,945 posts, read 2,836,798 times
Reputation: 4334

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyLongLeg View Post
//www.city-data.com/forum/51058853-post4.html

TOTAL UN-TRUTH^^^ The Dawes list is THE PRIMARY RECORD USED to verify someone eligible for native american benefits.

//www.city-data.com/forum/51058973-post6.html
As I understand it, the Dawes Rolls were used to record members of five tribes (Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Muscogee (Creek), and Seminole). There are untold thousands of other Native Americans in the US who would not be listed. I live in a state with Puebloans and Navajo who are not on the list.

 
Old 02-18-2018, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
9,255 posts, read 14,312,034 times
Reputation: 12070
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyLongLeg View Post
//www.city-data.com/forum/51058853-post4.html

TOTAL UN-TRUTH^^^ The Dawes list is THE PRIMARY RECORD USED to verify someone eligible for native american benefits.

//www.city-data.com/forum/51058973-post6.html
I never said differently. I was contesting the idea that an individual living today would register themselves on the Dawes rolls because you said "In order to be Native American for any benefits sakes, you need to be listed on the Dawes Rolls." Which is totally incorrect.

When I said "They are not currently used to get Native American benefits." I was referring to the idea that they the Dawes rolls are currently used to register new people to get benefits, which is not the case. Sorry if that wasn't immediately clear, but it doesn't make your statement any less inaccurate.
 
Old 02-18-2018, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Northern California
107 posts, read 62,100 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminnm View Post
As I understand it, the Dawes Rolls were used to record members of five tribes (Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Muscogee (Creek), and Seminole). There are untold thousands of other Native Americans in the US who would not be listed. I live in a state with Puebloans and Navajo who are not on the list.
correct. The tribes youve listed are federally recognized tribes specifically containing the names of those who have direct decendents on the dawes rolls. There are actually two Cherokee tribes, one is called the band of something and the larger is called the Cherokee Nation.

These tribal members, and those eligible for tribal membership due to a direct ancestor are eligible to be verified to sign up for a low level of medical benefits called contract health services. These Tribal Members of tribes you listed can receive their own healthplan at no cost on the ACA Marketplace. Very few qualify for that. For most, tribal membership to the tribes listed doesnt gain much monetarily. Most people do not want to move out to Oklahoma to live on a reservation, a dismal way of life. Though some who own casinos and have fewer members to share the profits with may provide more.

The ACA allows those eligible for membership to the 5 federal tribes to receive the lowest level of Indian Health Benefits.Nothing to shake a stick at but they generally run out of funds around the middle of the year, or did, prior to the ACA.
"Don't get sick after June" was their mantra.

One not need be a member of the federal tribe but if direct ancestry listed on the Official Dawes Official Rolls and it can be proven, it is the GOLD STANDARD used to verify eligibility for the lowest level of medical services provided through the Indian Health Service. And tribal membership if one wants to pursue that further with their respective federal tribes.

Dawes Rolls are the GOLD STANDARD to verify not only Federal Tribal Membership (which automatically allows one eligibility for Indian Health medical Services) but if one is not a member but has a direct ancestor listed on the official dawes, then they can be verified native american for medical use purposes. Other federal tribe members only need to show their tribal membership id cards

The largest Federal Cherokee Tribe called Cherokee Nation has a TON of members so there is almost nothing monetary to gain by becoming a member unless one wants to connect with family.

Last edited by BushyEyeBrows; 02-18-2018 at 08:41 PM..
 
Old 02-19-2018, 12:14 AM
 
877 posts, read 893,271 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyLongLeg View Post
No. Those tests are not accurate so there is no reason to use them.

Those tests are not accurate nor do they determine who is native american. My best friens siblings got tested, totally different results. Both are Native American.

If it were me, I would've asked for my money back

Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma. I've researched her entire family well into the 1800's in Oklahoma. She has a large family.

Let's just say it would be ALMOST IMPOSSSIBLE for her not to be Native American because that's all there were, 90% when you look at the census in that area.

Oklahoma became an official state in 1906. My Grandpa lived in one state then it was re-named another. How weird.

In order to be Native American for any benefits sakes, you need to be listed on the Dawes Rolls. You can search online for her maiden name over there then go from there using a website called 3Fold. It's been a while since I've done it. I realize what I've posted is foolishness to most who aren't familiar with Native American research but if you want to learn, it isn't really that hard. Just takes time
I'm sorry but so much wrong with this post here.

There were many White people with no reason to believe any Native American ancestry (if so likely 300+ years ago not in Oklahoma). Some were there in the early land rushes others were squatting on Indian territory that would become open to White settlers. I have ancestors from both. Huge chunks of people came over from places like Texas with whole groups of other White settlers (my own Bryant and Drake ancestors came over with the Crockett family, descendants of Davy Crockett, whom they intermarried with). I have found no evidence for Native American ancestry up those lines (though the Bryant have stories further back, none have been verified).

Also the DNA tests are accurate, you just have to know the context of what they provide. Sometimes the test results themselves are a bit misleading and sometimes its people who presume too much either way. Autosomal DNA tests are pretty accurate and determining the drastically different DNA patterns from different contents, so they're pretty good at identifying DNA from European, Sub-Saharan-Africa, and East Asian/Native American.

So yes a DNA test will pick up Native American DNA at a reasonable accuracy level if you have it, it just won't narrow it down beyond East Asian/Native American. At least at this point.

Most people who challenge the accuracy of such tests are just disappointed they didn't find what they were looking for.

We don't choose our ancestry, it chooses us.

Now with all that said I don't know if Elizabeth Warren has Native ancestry. I've only done a minimal look into it. I know on my first couple passes on the lines where her family stores tie to seem to be far from certain. Likely she is like so many White Americans, raised with stories of Native American ancestry that either just doesn't exist or is far further back and somewhere else on their tree.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 10:56 AM
 
Location: OH->FL->NJ
11,572 posts, read 8,820,418 times
Reputation: 5186
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyLongLeg View Post
No. Those tests are not accurate so there is no reason to use them.

Those tests are not accurate nor do they determine who is native american. My best friens siblings got tested, totally different results. Both are Native American.

If it were me, I would've asked for my money back

Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma. I've researched her entire family well into the 1800's in Oklahoma. She has a large family.

Let's just say it would be ALMOST IMPOSSSIBLE for her not to be Native American because that's all there were, 90% when you look at the census in that area.

Oklahoma became an official state in 1906. My Grandpa lived in one state then it was re-named another. How weird.

In order to be Native American for any benefits sakes, you need to be listed on the Dawes Rolls. You can search online for her maiden name over there then go from there using a website called 3Fold. It's been a while since I've done it. I realize what I've posted is foolishness to most who aren't familiar with Native American research but if you want to learn, it isn't really that hard. Just takes time
Meet almost impossible

Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter: Elizabeth Warren's Ancestry - Part 1
 
Old 02-19-2018, 11:14 AM
 
877 posts, read 893,271 times
Reputation: 1227
Moderator cut: removed quoted political remarks that are off topic for this forum

This is the genealogy sub-forum not a political one, I won't talk politics and you shouldn't either here, such things will get moderated and we should respect the rules.

Heritage and ancestry has nothing to do with politics at all. For example you saying if someone didn't grow up on a reservation means Native American ancestry doesn't matter might equal me saying if you didn't grow up in Israel or a traditional Jewish European region then Jewish ancestry doesn't matter.

There's not only ever one shoe to fit for a certain heritage or ancestry and it has nothing to do with votes.

With all that said I'm skeptical she actually has Native ancestry, at least where her families stories originate. Though I don't know.

In that case she's not unique, I've seen countless White Americans here and many other places have the same stories. My own family had such stories. I've actually found Native DNA in my grandmother and triangulated segments and it happens to lead to none of the place where there are Native stories lol.

She's explained that she was told strong stories of it, maybe there's something to those stories, often some stories have a seed of truth. With that said I personally suspect it's more likely she's like many other Americans and those stories are simply false or distorted. I personally see no need to attack her for that any more than I would any other person who has been told false family stories. It doesn't make a person bad that they were raised with stories of family heritage and they turn out to be false. There are many other types of false family heritage stories out there too that have nothing to do with Native American ancestry.

Last edited by in_newengland; 02-19-2018 at 08:48 PM..
 
Old 02-19-2018, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Northern California
107 posts, read 62,100 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alandros View Post
I'm sorry but so much wrong with this post here.

There were many White people with no reason to believe any Native American ancestry (if so likely 300+ years ago not in Oklahoma). Some were there in the early land rushes others were squatting on Indian territory that would become open to White settlers. I have ancestors from both. Huge chunks of people came over from places like Texas with whole groups of other White settlers (my own Bryant and Drake ancestors came over with the Crockett family, descendants of Davy Crockett, whom they intermarried with). I have found no evidence for Native American ancestry up those lines (though the Bryant have stories further back, none have been verified).

Also the DNA tests are accurate, you just have to know the context of what they provide. Sometimes the test results themselves are a bit misleading and sometimes its people who presume too much either way. Autosomal DNA tests are pretty accurate and determining the drastically different DNA patterns from different contents, so they're pretty good at identifying DNA from European, Sub-Saharan-Africa, and East Asian/Native American.

So yes a DNA test will pick up Native American DNA at a reasonable accuracy level if you have it, it just won't narrow it down beyond East Asian/Native American. At least at this point.

Most people who challenge the accuracy of such tests are just disappointed they didn't find what they were looking for.

We don't choose our ancestry, it chooses us.

Now with all that said I don't know if Elizabeth Warren has Native ancestry. I've only done a minimal look into it. I know on my first couple passes on the lines where her family stores tie to seem to be far from certain. Likely she is like so many White Americans, raised with stories of Native American ancestry that either just doesn't exist or is far further back and somewhere else on their tree.
Nothing you have "disputed" is even contained in my post except the accuracy of the Native American testing. When someone has lived on a reservation their whole life and tells me she and her brother took the tests but they came out vastly different, I believe her. Just because you say they are accurate doesn't make it gospel truth. I've heard this before, they are inaccurate.

So one thing you "feel" isn't right in my post which you incorrectly state as a fact doesn't make an entire post wrong. Especially when your feelings are wrong.

Last edited by BushyEyeBrows; 02-19-2018 at 11:42 AM..
 
Old 02-19-2018, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Northern California
107 posts, read 62,100 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwatted Wabbit View Post
I don't believe she's yet gotten a psychiatric exam, if that's what OP is talking about. Her grandmother had high cheekbones. Who needs more evidence than that?
High cheekbones is native to Choctaw Indians.

Just like African American is a different race from Norwegian, Choctaw is a completely different race from cherokee. The native american races are all different races, it is us who lump them together. Elizabeth Warrens ancestors are from my Dads town so by default, I know a little about her.

Again, anyone can do the research on her family and know the likelihood of her being Native American. There was a free 2 week membership to Ancestry.com and 3fold websites but I am not sure if that is still so. It was for many years. 3Fold is wonderful, which again, provides info like- family names incl. maiden names, ages, kin, locations, marriages, ethnicity,etc..sorta like a ton of census rolls all wrapped into one. Utilizing your family members family trees already created helps alot.

My GGG Grandpa, who claimed to NOT be Native American who tried to get on...well stay on at the Cherokee Nation tribe. Took it all the way to the Supreme Court who ordered the Cherokee Nation to allow him to remain living there. Yet they disobeyed Court Order and kicked him out anyway. Except later he lived with his sister on the reservation (who is native american) all while he continuously proclaimed not to be Native American. A bit bizarre.

.
To the FORUM- Ancestry.com and 3fold websites had a free 2 week membership. I only have one credit card so cannot use it to sign up but WIKI contains Elizabeth Warrens birthday and location of birth. That is all I needed. It was very easy to research her family to learn they are from the same area as my Father and his side, who is a mixture of Choctaw and Cherokee. Compare her info the census found on the two websites to narrow down who was living there at the time, their ethnicity and the population. It's kinda fun, actually. But maybe it was easier for me because due to understanding the geography of the area aka its history, where the counties are versus their former names, etc..

Last edited by BushyEyeBrows; 02-19-2018 at 11:41 AM..
 
Old 02-19-2018, 11:36 AM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,894 posts, read 18,711,819 times
Reputation: 32371
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyLongLeg View Post

Let's just say it would be ALMOST IMPOSSSIBLE for her not to be Native American because that's all there were, 90% when you look at the census in that area.
Be Native American, or have a Native American ancestor?

Two totally different things. If I have 31 French ancestors, and 1 Swedish ancestor, am I Swedish?

Also, it is certainly not impossible to be from a place that is 90% of one group, and not have ancestors from that group, especially if your ancestry there is only a few generations deep. There are plenty of white South Africans who have no Zulu or Xhosa ancestry, for example.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Northern California
107 posts, read 62,100 times
Reputation: 223
all I can do to explain your question is to refer you to the quote of mine you quoted


"Let's just say it would be ALMOST IMPOSSSIBLE for her not to be Native American because that's all there were, 90% when you look at the census in that area"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Genealogy
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top