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Old 03-28-2018, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Don16 View Post
Hey everyone, so I've been very interested in my ancestry for a while now but I kinda feel like I've hit a brick wall of sorts. So I took an Ancestry DNA test a little while back and received my results, and as usual I saw some things that I kinda suspected but wasn't totally sure of and also saw some things that were a shock to me. One thing that I looked forward to seeing was what Genetic Communities that I would be assigned to. So my mother is from Maryland but some of my ancestry goes back to Virginia, my father was born in Trinidad and my grandparents were also born there as well. So I was assigned "Virginia & Southern States African Americans", but the shock to me was that it didn't say anything about "African Caribbeans". I wasn't raised by my father so I don't have any further info about my background on that side of the family.

So this raises two questions in my mind that I hope you guys can answer for me. 1, are there any resources that I can use to find out about my Caribbean ancestors since I can't find anything on Ancestry (it seems like it's hard to retrieve records from that region)? And 2, is it possible that my roots in Trinidad aren't as deep as I thought and that my ancestors possibly lived in a region that isn't yet covered in the Genetic Communities (Trinidad is right off the coast of South America and I don't think that they're any Genetic Communities for African descendants on that continent)? It's also possible that not enough people that are genetically similar to my paternal family took the test to be connected to that Genetic Community, but I find that unlikely. I could be wrong though so I'm open to all responses .

After the War of 1812 some 700 slaves (probably male) from the south settled in Trinidad. Since you know your grandparents were born there and your father was start there. Ask you dad where they were born and if affiliated with any church then take that information and contact churches https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...Church_Records to see if you can find out your great grandparents and from there your great great's. Here is how to research Trinidad records https://candoo.com/genresources/#TRINIDADTOBAGO
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
This is the thing that theory is very unlikely as during the 1700 DR had a very low population (less then 50K) I doubt that slave commerce was a thing at that point as the Spanish side of the island was basically empty. for example" The population of Santo Domingo (the whole county) was about 6,000 in 1737. for most of the 1700s Spain and Britain were at war, so no commerce was allowed, the probabilities that large amounts of slaves made it to the US from DR is slim. you might be confusing santo dominigo (spanish) with san Domingue (french). San domingue was the name of the french colony in Haiti, that had half a million slaves and was a very active slave port, not Santo domingo (the spanish colony) that was small, under populated and poor.

I Doubt the documents you cite say santo domingo Dominican republic as the DR didnt existed until 1844. San domingue is today's Haiti not DR, despite the fact that the capital of DR is called santo domingo.

Even though DR had slaves by the 1700 the economy of the Spanish side was based on ranching and didnt have an extensive plantation economy as Cuba or Haiti.


saint domingue (french) was the largest slave port in the Caribbean and the richest slave colony. i think this is were your mistake is.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Domingue


"In the 19th and early 20th centuries, American and British authors often referred to Saint-Domingue period as "Santo Domingo" or "San Domingo."[7]:2 This led to confusion with the earlier Spanish colony, and later the contemporary Spanish colony established at Santo Domingo during the colonial period; in particular, in political debates on slavery previous to the American Civil War, "San Domingo" was used to express fears of Southern whites of a slave rebellion breaking out in their own region. Today, the former Spanish possession contemporary with the early period of the French colony corresponds mostly with the Dominican Republic, whose capital is Santo Domingo. The name of Saint-Domingue was changed to Hayti (Haïti) when Jean-Jacques Dessalines declared the independence of all Hispaniola from the French in 1804.[29] Like the name Haiti itself, Saint-Domingue may be used to refer to all of Hispaniola, or the western part in the French colonial period, while the Spanish version Hispaniola or Santo Domingo is often used to refer to the Spanish colonial period or the Dominican nation."

the common name for Haiti in english during the 1700s was "San Domingo" as a miss translation of saint domingue. It is confusing but the chances those documents refer to DR are close to nill.
I agree with the bold, but it doesn't negate the fact that the ancestor was born in the Caribbean, which was my point....

You posted about the emigrants to the DR after 1820 when I stated my ancestor was born approximately 1780 so you trying to tell me about him having been a part of the Semana emigrants was ignorant and unnecessary based on approximate birth.

The original document I have does say Santo Domingo (i.e. DR - I can read and can even read cursive! I also know the difference between Santo Domingo and St. Domingue) however, I do believe it may be Haiti where my distant relative was born and may have just been an error regarding the informant of the death cert who was the son-in-law of the deceased.

I also have distant DNA relatives who match me and my grandfather in Haiti (but we are not sure of if they are connected via the later family members who emigrated to Haiti in the mid 19th century where I mentioned that some stayed and some returned or from this earlier ancestor who was listed as being born in the DR on his death cert).

Just wanted to note that Caribbean ancestry is not all that uncommon for African Americans even those of us with long roots in this country because of the slave trade along with the free people who emigrated overseas and subsequently they or their descendants returned.

Also that having African ancestry on the ancestry.com DNA migration descriptions seems to often show some reference to southern American migration patterns, no matter our documentation which shows otherwise. Even people where both their parents are born in Africa or the Caribbean in some of the circles I run in, their migrations reference some southern USA state/region even though their parents were born overseas.

My response to you was predicated on the fact that you don't know what people know about their research. If you want to know you can ask. I can be snarky but don't bite (at least not online lol). But I have the documents associated with my ancestor, I know how to read cursive, and I know geography and name changes of various countries. I'm not as ignorant or in need of wikipedia as you seem to believe
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I agree with the bold, but it doesn't negate the fact that the ancestor was born in the Caribbean, which was my point....

You posted about the emigrants to the DR after 1820 when I stated my ancestor was born approximately 1780 so you trying to tell me about him having been a part of the Semana emigrants was ignorant and unnecessary based on approximate birth.

The original document I have does say Santo Domingo (i.e. DR - I can read and can even read cursive! I also know the difference between Santo Domingo and St. Domingue) however, I do believe it may be Haiti where my distant relative was born and may have just been an error regarding the informant of the death cert who was the son-in-law of the deceased.

I also have distant DNA relatives who match me and my grandfather in Haiti (but we are not sure of if they are connected via the later family members who emigrated to Haiti in the mid 19th century where I mentioned that some stayed and some returned or from this earlier ancestor who was listed as being born in the DR on his death cert).

Just wanted to note that Caribbean ancestry is not all that uncommon for African Americans even those of us with long roots in this country because of the slave trade along with the free people who emigrated overseas and subsequently they or their descendants returned.

Also that having African ancestry on the ancestry.com DNA migration descriptions seems to often show some reference to southern American migration patterns, no matter our documentation which shows otherwise. Even people where both their parents are born in Africa or the Caribbean in some of the circles I run in, their migrations reference some southern USA state/region even though their parents were born overseas.

My response to you was predicated on the fact that you don't know what people know about their research. If you want to know you can ask. I can be snarky but don't bite (at least not online lol). But I have the documents associated with my ancestor, I know how to read cursive, and I know geography and name changes of various countries. I'm not as ignorant or in need of wikipedia as you seem to believe



First; the only link in Dominican history between Philadelphia and DR is the Samana immigrants nothing else, therefore is only logic to do deeper research on that regard as the strongest possibility based of historical evidence. Second; you should not trust dates specially birth dates of slaves as they were poorly recorded, (use them just as general reference). Third; You erroneously mentioned DR as the place of birth of that person but the likeness of that being true is close to none.

so that bring us back to the Samana immigrants. you see, you even admit that the possibility of that DNA link to Haiti could be related to some relative going to Haiti on some later date. Most of the Philadelphia slaves brought to Haiti came at the same time than the samana immigrants (it was a Haitian plan to populate the Spanish side with American blacks as they saw that side to have low population and difficult to control as they were mostly mulattoes. After the Dominican independence most of those immigrants moved to the Haitian side.

The only other mass migration of slaves from Hispaniola to the US occurred in 1801 (your relative was 21 at that time) during the slave revolts before the Haitian revolution, lots of french settlers moved to Louisiana with their slaves. It could be worth to look at that possibility.

Another possibility, even remote, is that he was in fact born on the Dominican side as a free man. Free man of color where allowed to do commerce with the dutch and it was not uncommon for them to be part of their boat crew as hands. He could have come to Philly on a dutch boat to do commerce and just stayed. Philly was a main stop for dutch boats doing commerce in the Spanish Caribbean at the time. They would follow the gulf stream parallel to the US east coast stopping in Philly and NYC then returning to Europe.

This was a common practice so common that the first non-native to live in NYC was born In the DR and came to America on a dutch boat. (This happened much earlier than the dates we are talking about but the general fact remains the same)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_(Jan)_Rodriguez

I just use wikepdia because is quick. lol no offence meant.

Free man of color moving from Hispaniola to the US at the time was very common even making it to the frontier, as deep into the continent as the Indian territory and the Canadian border. The most dramatic example might be Jean Batiste Point du Sable.

The irony that the first non-native habitants of both New York and Chicago were Free man of color born in Hispaniola tells something about the mobility during those 200 years.

Last edited by upthere22; 03-28-2018 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:43 AM
 
16,206 posts, read 8,476,895 times
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Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
[/color]

First; the only link in Dominican history between Philadelphia and DR is the Samana immigrants nothing else, therefore is only logic to do deeper research on that regard as the strongest possibility based of historical evidence. Second; you should not trust dates specially birth dates of slaves as they were poorly recorded, (use them just as general reference). Third; You erroneously mentioned DR as the place of birth of that person but the likeness of that being true is close to none.

so that bring us back to the Samana immigrants. you see, you even admit that the possibility of that DNA link to Haiti could be related to some relative going to Haiti on some later date. Most of the Philadelphia slaves brought to Haiti came at the same time than the samana immigrants (it was a Haitian plan to populate the Spanish side with American blacks as they saw that side to have low population and difficult to control as they were mostly mulattoes. After the Dominican independence most of those immigrants moved to the Haitian side.

The only other mass migration of slaves from Hispaniola to the US occurred in 1801 (your relative was 21 at that time) during the slave revolts before the Haitian revolution, lots of french settlers moved to Louisiana with their slaves. It could be worth to look at that possibility.

Another possibility, even remote, is that he was in fact born on the Dominican side as a free man. Free man of color where allowed to do commerce with the dutch and it was not uncommon for them to be part of their boat crew as hands. He could have come to Philly on a dutch boat to do commerce and just stayed. Philly was a main stop for dutch boats doing commerce in the Spanish Caribbean at the time. They would follow the gulf stream parallel to the US east coast stopping in Philly and NYC then returning to Europe.

This was a common practice so common that the first non-native to live in NYC was born In the DR and came to America on a dutch boat. (This happened much earlier than the dates we are talking about but the general fact remains the same)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_(Jan)_Rodriguez

I just use wikepdia because is quick. lol no offence meant.

Free man of color moving from Hispaniola to the US at the time was very common even making it to the frontier, as deep into the continent as the Indian territory and the Canadian border. The most dramatic example might be Jean Batiste Point du Sable.

The irony that the first non-native habitants of both New York and Chicago were Free man of color born in Hispaniola tells something about the mobility during those 200 years.
Nice to know there are so many people in internet world who know more about my ancestors than I know when I've been researching for over 20 years and who know how to use Wikipedia cause you know, I am just stupid about my own ancestry (and geography and how to read cursive and about emigrationists....) because someone else on the internets knows how to use Wikipedia and always wants to show their superior googling skills lol .

Note, I mention frequently on this forum that I have "free" ancestors. So your whole spiel is very unnecessary. I also mentioned that I do believe he may have been born in Haiti. A majority of my PA ancestors and especially on this line of my family were FPOC, which is how they were able to be emigrants to Haiti, Canada, and Liberia. Many of them have been "free" since the mid 1700s (others from the late 1600s due to being offspring of white women and black men) some, including this line, I've never found that they were enslaved, but I don't rule out that occurring since without documentation, I never rule out a possibility.

But you keep thinking you know more about my own family than I do.

Will note and not sorry if it offends you that you come off very paternalistic about black people and our ancestry am not sure if you are black but you remind me of prejudiced people who like to believe all black people are ignorant. You don't even know who my ancestor is and yet you inserted your two cents when it was not needed or requested of you. It is always interesting to me that often when someone mentions that they are black online, someone tries to educate me/us on things they think we don't know about - as if we, because we are black are too stupid to do adequate research or know how to read. I'm pretty sure I know way more about this subject that you, because as noted, I don't need to use Wikipedia to source my knowledge and emigrationists in particular are very prominent in my family tree so I have been studying them for over a decade. You saw I said I had an ancestor whose death record indicated he was born in Santo Domingo/DR (of which I actually have a copy of it and I would post it but the family is actually a very well known family for people who know about free black emigrationists and I'd prefer not to do so) and you immediately wanted to "correct" me as if I don't know how to read or don't know what I'm talking about.

It is sad that there are actually people like you in real life. It is a reason why a lot of black researchers don't like joining mainstream genealogical societies/organizations we don't want to put up with prejudice in a hobby that is enjoyable for us. It is also akin to the many issues that are still at play in America today in regards to "race relations" the idea that black people need outside help with even reading lol. Or that we don't know simple, elementary historical facts/eras. It is really sad.

Last edited by residinghere2007; 03-29-2018 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:56 PM
 
453 posts, read 186,684 times
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Nice to know there are so many people in internet world who know more about my ancestors than I know when I've been researching for over 20 years and who know how to use Wikipedia cause you know, I am just stupid about my own ancestry (and geography and how to read cursive and about emigrationists....) because someone else on the internets knows how to use Wikipedia and always wants to show their superior googling skills lol .

Note, I mention frequently on this forum that I have "free" ancestors. So your whole spiel is very unnecessary. I also mentioned that I do believe he may have been born in Haiti. A majority of my PA ancestors and especially on this line of my family were FPOC, which is how they were able to be emigrants to Haiti, Canada, and Liberia. Many of them have been "free" since the mid 1700s (others from the late 1600s due to being offspring of white women and black men) some, including this line, I've never found that they were enslaved, but I don't rule out that occurring since without documentation, I never rule out a possibility.

But you keep thinking you know more about my own family than I do.

Will note and not sorry if it offends you that you come off very paternalistic about black people and our ancestry am not sure if you are black but you remind me of prejudiced people who like to believe all black people are ignorant. You don't even know who my ancestor is and yet you inserted your two cents when it was not needed or requested of you. It is always interesting to me that often when someone mentions that they are black online, someone tries to educate me/us on things they think we don't know about - as if we, because we are black are too stupid to do adequate research or know how to read. I'm pretty sure I know way more about this subject that you, because as noted, I don't need to use Wikipedia to source my knowledge and emigrationists in particular are very prominent in my family tree so I have been studying them for over a decade. You saw I said I had an ancestor whose death record indicated he was born in Santo Domingo/DR (of which I actually have a copy of it and I would post it but the family is actually a very well known family for people who know about free black emigrationists and I'd prefer not to do so) and you immediately wanted to "correct" me as if I don't know how to read or don't know what I'm talking about.

It is sad that there are actually people like you in real life. It is a reason why a lot of black researchers don't like joining mainstream genealogical societies/organizations we don't want to put up with prejudice in a hobby that is enjoyable for us. It is also akin to the many issues that are still at play in America today in regards to "race relations" the idea that black people need outside help with even reading lol. Or that we don't know simple, elementary historical facts/eras. It is really sad.
I was born in the Caribbean on Hispaniola actually and the history of slavery is the history of my country and people. Your theory just dosent match the local historical evidence of slave migrations. seems like make-believe, something you want very hard to be true and only follow that "evidence" that follows that line. the facts are that maybe your ancestor was born a slave in St Domingue (not DR). thats just the highest statistical probability. The documents seems to suggest that and also the DNA link. I live in the US now and blacks here are not very aware of the nuances of the slave trade and its history, they have what you would call "canned lines to regurgitate". Seems like you want your research to follow what you want it to be and not what the evidence will suggest. Maybe i know more than you about the slave trade. And i am pretty sure i could educate you on the subject, and point you to the right archives, but that would be pointless as It is impossible for you to know anything about the slave trade Hispaniola without first learning Spanish and second traveling to Spain, No DR or Haiti, but to Spain and France were all the list of slaves sold in to US are kept (as cargo manifests) and are not digitized. Of course I can educate you on the subject of "how to find ancestors in the Caribbean" as that was your original question, I am from there and have done it, often, I been in the archives, read the original books, but, I can see you are toolless to embark yourself in such a task.
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Old 03-29-2018, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
I was born in the Caribbean on Hispaniola actually and the history of slavery is the history of my country and people. Your theory just dosent match the local historical evidence of slave migrations. seems like make-believe, something you want very hard to be true and only follow that "evidence" that follows that line. the facts are that maybe your ancestor was born a slave in St Domingue (not DR). thats just the highest statistical probability. The documents seems to suggest that and also the DNA link. I live in the US now and blacks here are not very aware of the nuances of the slave trade and its history, they have what you would call "canned lines to regurgitate". Seems like you want your research to follow what you want it to be and not what the evidence will suggest. Maybe i know more than you about the slave trade. And i am pretty sure i could educate you on the subject, and point you to the right archives, but that would be pointless as It is impossible for you to know anything about the slave trade Hispaniola without first learning Spanish and second traveling to Spain, No DR or Haiti, but to Spain and France were all the list of slaves sold in to US are kept (as cargo manifests) and are not digitized. Of course I can educate you on the subject of "how to find ancestors in the Caribbean" as that was your original question, I am from there and have done it, often, I been in the archives, read the original books, but, I can see you are toolless to embark yourself in such a task.
Sigh, why would I want "very hard" for something to be true?" lol

That is ridiculous.

I don't know what you know, but in our exchange you haven't shown knowledge about anything I don't know and you don't have a wealth of knowledge in the sources you use. You also don't seem to be able to comprehend the fact that I have a death record from 1853 of my ancestor that says he was born in Santo Domingo.

I don't make up stuff about historical documents and have no need to do so.

Also, if you are from the Caribbean/Hispaniola, that is fine for me; that means you are not from the USA and you are not from Pennsylvania and you are no expert on the history of the black American population from PA.

I cited two sources for you who are historians who focus on Pennsylvania, the first one by George Nagle, he provides a wealth of information in that book about the origins of slaves of Pennsylvania in the late 17th and early to mid 18th centuries. I'll believe him over you - random dude from DR on the internet.

I have no desire to be associated with the DR and actually have a very negative view of the country (based upon its pretty prejudiced views of Hatians and the idea of being primarily African ancestored - I've been to the DR before and will never go back over a variety of personal reasons and would rather go to Haiti instead to investigate my known relatives who stayed there after the Civil War when the rest of my family returned to the USA). It was very surprising for me finding the document with the reference to Santo Domingo as I never associated this particular family with the DR initially until I found that document. And as noted, I don't necessarily believe it is true and more research is required.

I am VERY comfortable being descended of black American slaves. For me it is a wonderful thing to be descended from.

I'm hoping you will stick to the OP subject in the future if you can offer help to the OP versus trying to tell me what I don't know when what I spoke about was directly in reference to the "migration" issue on ancestry referenced by the OP.
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Old 03-29-2018, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Sigh, why would I want "very hard" for something to be true?" lol

That is ridiculous.

I don't know what you know, but in our exchange you haven't shown knowledge about anything I don't know and you don't have a wealth of knowledge in the sources you use. You also don't seem to be able to comprehend the fact that I have a death record from 1853 of my ancestor that says he was born in Santo Domingo.

I don't make up stuff about historical documents and have no need to do so.

Also, if you are from the Caribbean/Hispaniola, that is fine for me; that means you are not from the USA and you are not from Pennsylvania and you are no expert on the history of the black American population from PA.

I cited two sources for you who are historians who focus on Pennsylvania, the first one by George Nagle, he provides a wealth of information in that book about the origins of slaves of Pennsylvania in the late 17th and early to mid 18th centuries. I'll believe him over you - random dude from DR on the internet.

I have no desire to be associated with the DR and actually have a very negative view of the country (based upon its pretty prejudiced views of Hatians and the idea of being primarily African ancestored - I've been to the DR before and will never go back over a variety of personal reasons and would rather go to Haiti instead to investigate my known relatives who stayed there after the Civil War when the rest of my family returned to the USA). It was very surprising for me finding the document with the reference to Santo Domingo as I never associated this particular family with the DR initially until I found that document. And as noted, I don't necessarily believe it is true and more research is required.

I am VERY comfortable being descended of black American slaves. For me it is a wonderful thing to be descended from.

I'm hoping you will stick to the OP subject in the future if you can offer help to the OP versus trying to tell me what I don't know when what I spoke about was directly in reference to the "migration" issue on ancestry referenced by the OP.
Reading books from people in the US will not help you at all, as they tend to be shallow and agenda driven. so no, that a bad start. Second I am Haitian, Not Dominican, and as Just told you You have to search in DR, Spain, or France, all the archives in Haiti are lost, burnt, thats sad but its the true. You seem to make up your mid very easily with scant evidence, you just assumed I was Dominican over a purposely vague sentence. you just fall into conclusions without evidence.

As a Haitian was trying to point out that the link is with Haiti not DR. but you just did what you do ( assume and fall into conclusions).
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Reading books from people in the US will not help you at all, as they tend to be shallow and agenda driven.
Wow. I really don't know anything about this subject, but all and any credibility I may have given you just went out the window when you decided people in the US are "shallow and agenda driven", and can't possibly be good, responsible researchers. Not only is that ridiculously incorrect but it's also incredibly prejudice.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:40 AM
 
453 posts, read 186,684 times
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Wow. I really don't know anything about this subject, but all and any credibility I may have given you just went out the window when you decided people in the US are "shallow and agenda driven", and can't possibly be good, responsible researchers. Not only is that ridiculously incorrect but it's also incredibly prejudice.
95% of the research of the slave trade in the Caribbean has been made by local researchers, and Spanish and french researchers, no good research has been done by american researchers and they are not a reliable source of information in the matter. Most of the american research have been done in the shoulders of the ground work of those researchers. So they do tend to be shallow and agenda driven. poof me wrong then. You just have to look at the recent attempt to present the latin american slave trade to the African american public done by Dr Henry Louis Gates Jr. a famous researcher. He has been denounced in Cuba, Brazil and DR as a racial baiter for mis-characterizing those societies, misunderstanding and basically lying about the basic tenements of race relations in those countries to fit the american racial speech. If you knew Portuguese you would see how the Brazilian media treated his analysis of Brazilian society, and his inability to understand that those societies are not the US therefore do not think the same about race and what it means to be black. He utilizes American one-dropism to elaborate and impose a racial discourse on others.

Just grab any book by Henry Louis Gates Jr. and go to the bibliography, you will see all research to sustains his claims were done outside the US. There is a reason for that, the french and the Spanish moved the vast majority of the slaves across the oceans, they have the records they do the research. The United States received just 4% of the slaves transported across the Atlantic, while almost half, nearly five million men ended up in Brazil, 3 million in the Caribbean, the US just got close to 400k. The US is not an important place to do research about the slave trade and honestly due to the never changing racial landscape of the racial relations in the US, and the use of research to fit certain political positions is very hard to find unbiased, honest research about the subject.

Last edited by upthere22; 03-30-2018 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
9,254 posts, read 14,290,922 times
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Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
95% of the research of the slave trade in the Caribbean has been made by local researchers, and Spanish and french researchers, no good recharge has been done by american researcher and they are not a reliable source of information in the matter. Most of the american reseach have been done in the shoulders of the ground work of those researchers. So they do tend to be shallow and agenda driven. poof me wrong then.
You're the one making prejudice accusations at an entire nation of researchers, you're the one who needs to prove yourself.
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