U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Genealogy
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-12-2018, 12:31 PM
 
25,373 posts, read 18,886,582 times
Reputation: 9878

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear99 View Post
And what do you get from DNA testing? Information about the living. It tells you nothing about the past. It presumes that grandparents have been in the same place forever. Look it up. That's the key to 23andme and ancestry methodology. A huuuge presumption, since any decent researcher can go back further than that. Of course, you don't like research.

You ought to do some reading on the methodology behind DNA genealogy, before you make bold claims. Of course that would be research. Easier to just blindly copy the work of others, isn't it, and propagate the errors. I guess for some people, any big old tree, even one full of errors, is better than a small one that's accurate?
Actually, DNA testing did not presume that my grandparents had been in the same place forever. It told me what nations from African the African portion of my family came from. It not only confirmed the white Jewish ancestry, it told gave me much greater details on the European side of my family. My family history beyond the 1800s is simply not traceable. No amount of research can find records that don't exist.

I was very interest in learning my ethnic origins in Africa, something that obviously slave owners for rather obvious reasons had no interest in recording.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-12-2018, 12:39 PM
 
25,373 posts, read 18,886,582 times
Reputation: 9878
Also keeping in mind different groups of people have different histories, trying to find out very specific information on an ancestor of a person is not necessarily appealing.

I don't want detailed info on my ancestors who were slaves. I don't want detailed information on my ancestors who fled the Spanish Inquisition. My family history is grim, and yes, it's grim when your great great great grandfather is the owner of your great great great grandmother.

I did want to confirm my exact ethnic origins from Africa and from Europe, and that I did do via genetic testing. I know that my Jewish ancestor was Sephardic given the community he was from and giving that Samuels was one of the common names on the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisition lists, and given that Spanish shows up in my DNA. I know the regions my African ancestors are.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 12:41 PM
 
25,373 posts, read 18,886,582 times
Reputation: 9878
Before some of you declare yourself superior because you decide you prefer hours of going over written documents, please CONSIDER that family histories mean very different things to very different people, and depending on the group of people and DEPENDING on the nation there just aren't these kids of records available.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 01:16 PM
 
3,026 posts, read 1,839,281 times
Reputation: 3190
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
And on top of that Jewish people often changed their last names because they were persecuted and forced to convert to Christianity. They've found via genetic testing that large portions of the populations of the Southwest, parts of Mexico, and other parts of Latin America that many Latinos are part Jewish. In most cases you will not find direct records of this, in part since admitting you were Jewish meant you were dead via the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish and Portuguese governments maintained lists of last names that were common among expelled and persecuted Jews.

But record keeping was and is extremely SPARSE. Similarly, Jews in colonial America weren't jumping up and down to write Jewish on their documents or on how that felt, and you had assimilation via marriage as well.
Yes, there was forced assimilation as a result of the inquisition, among other things. But neither Ancestry or 23 are good sources for this, because their own reference populations don't take into account modern research into Jewish history. Their reference population is heavily biased toward a few Jewish populations like eastern Europe, while ignoring others, particularly since there are no modern descendents for many.

Yes, records were sparse because there was no culture of such record keeping among Jews. And there was no central "church", unlike most christian sects, that promoted registration of life events.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 02:28 PM
 
25,373 posts, read 18,886,582 times
Reputation: 9878
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear99 View Post
Yes, there was forced assimilation as a result of the inquisition, among other things. But neither Ancestry or 23 are good sources for this, because their own reference populations don't take into account modern research into Jewish history. Their reference population is heavily biased toward a few Jewish populations like eastern Europe, while ignoring others, particularly since there are no modern descendents for many.

Yes, records were sparse because there was no culture of such record keeping among Jews. And there was no central "church", unlike most christian sects, that promoted registration of life events.
There are other groups and researchers doing genetic testing on populations, and enough is known about Sephardim (Jews of Spanish descent that were forced to convert or exiled) for this to show up in genetic testing, especially depending on what tests are used.

And of course Jewish people would not have kept records on themselves because they were often trying to hide.

The Inquisition kept lists of the last names of families forced to convert or were exiled, and various researchers have made these lists available. Obviously no one has a direct record straight back to the Inquisition, but last names traced to a Jewish ancestor plus finding any Jewish or Iberian peninsula in one's day, especially if there was a known Sephardic presence in one's community is often enough.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 02:39 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
8,133 posts, read 4,436,290 times
Reputation: 15384
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
It told me what nations from African the African portion of my family came from. It not only confirmed the white Jewish ancestry, it told gave me much greater details on the European side of my family. My family history beyond the 1800s is simply not traceable. No amount of research can find records that don't exist.
I'm impressed and encouraged that it was able to supply details on Africa. That's contrary to what I've heard from some others, including some DNA cousins with African ancestry. Did you use the standard tests? You might actually be at the end of your search but I figured that was true for me about 15 years ago but technology moves ahead and new records are found and published.

Very few family histories are a bed of roses. Very often they are one trauma after another: plague, famine, bullets, domination, warfare, rape, persecution, tenements and TB. They made decisions and life choices that we would reject in a minute but the context of the age is a big part of the puzzle. It is miracle that we are even here to look back and wonder about our ancestors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 02:54 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
8,133 posts, read 4,436,290 times
Reputation: 15384
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
The Inquisition kept lists of the last names of families forced to convert or were exiled, and various researchers have made these lists available. Obviously no one has a direct record straight back to the Inquisition, but last names traced to a Jewish ancestor plus finding any Jewish or Iberian peninsula in one's day, especially if there was a known Sephardic presence in one's community is often enough.
Here in New Mexico there are families that were Conversos in Spain who were allowed to migrate as settlers to New Spain and then traveled up to the far interior away from the authorities. They were crypto-Jews and kept some of their practices in secret for generations while being nominally Catholic. There's a lot of recent research and some remembrances being published in recent years. Certain things like six-pointed flowers carved on grave markers are now recognized as clues. Some families quietly observed Moses's birthday instead of the Christian holiday. On some vaguely remembered holy days the household saints were turned to face the wall. The Spanish Inquisition was active in New Mexico but these people and practices survived.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 03:02 PM
 
3,026 posts, read 1,839,281 times
Reputation: 3190
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
The Inquisition kept lists of the last names of families forced to convert or were exiled, and various researchers have made these lists available. Obviously no one has a direct record straight back to the Inquisition, but last names traced to a Jewish ancestor plus finding any Jewish or Iberian peninsula in one's day, especially if there was a known Sephardic presence in one's community is often enough.
I would caution anyone on the use of last (family) names before they were "fixed" which varies from country to country, and often happened in late 19th century. Then there was Ellis Island renaming!

Earlier, some cultures, such as Scandinavia and Jews used patrinomics, for common people. This has thrown many a beginning researcher off, not understanding th, at Itzhak ben Boruch was the son of Boruch (Benjamin), or Nils Larrson was the son of Lars. I suspect other countries/cultures did this too. I just don't have personal knowledge.

Back to DNA: Since assigning "ancestry" based on DNA is the result of a statistical process that has a lot of assumptions, and the process itself was developed statistically, (that is to say there's a lot of randomness behind and within the process), it's at best an estimate of unknown accuracy, at least to us. So the results should be, at best, a suggestion for future research. There is just no way DNA results can go back more than a few generations without assuming populations were immobile, which itself is an assumption not consistent with most histories. Look at the history of England, for a great example, or Brazil in more recent times.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 04:43 PM
 
12,568 posts, read 21,179,959 times
Reputation: 21136
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Before some of you declare yourself superior because you decide you prefer hours of going over written documents, please CONSIDER that family histories mean very different things to very different people, and depending on the group of people and DEPENDING on the nation there just aren't these kids of records available.
Not superior at all. I started doing genealogy before there was an Ancestry.com. In fact, I started before Family Tree Maker put out four diskettes of information, one of which was a SS death index.

All I had were documents. And letters sent out and holes in my tree and a fledgling internet. It was a boon! To me DNA is the icing on the cake.

Cake sounds good.

One approach isn’t more right than other approaches. All approaches work as well as they can given the parameters of your familial situation. As a white person firmly ensconsed in PA and NY, I got loads of documents and searching. Each find, I could pick the phone and tell my mom. Oh, telling her I found my great grandparents? The best.

And losing mom dimmed my genealogy zeal for a long while. I’ve gotten back into it and now my sisters get the calls.

It’s a hobby, and some people take their hobbies seriously. Too seriously, too. I quilt, and I’ve run into people who will flat out tell you, unless it is totally stitched by hand, and quilted by hand, it’s not a quilt. To those people, I usually give them a one finger salute.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2018, 06:53 PM
 
25,373 posts, read 18,886,582 times
Reputation: 9878
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear99 View Post
I would caution anyone on the use of last (family) names before they were "fixed" which varies from country to country, and often happened in late 19th century. Then there was Ellis Island renaming!

Earlier, some cultures, such as Scandinavia and Jews used patrinomics, for common people. This has thrown many a beginning researcher off, not understanding th, at Itzhak ben Boruch was the son of Boruch (Benjamin), or Nils Larrson was the son of Lars. I suspect other countries/cultures did this too. I just don't have personal knowledge.

Back to DNA: Since assigning "ancestry" based on DNA is the result of a statistical process that has a lot of assumptions, and the process itself was developed statistically, (that is to say there's a lot of randomness behind and within the process), it's at best an estimate of unknown accuracy, at least to us. So the results should be, at best, a suggestion for future research. There is just no way DNA results can go back more than a few generations without assuming populations were immobile, which itself is an assumption not consistent with most histories. Look at the history of England, for a great example, or Brazil in more recent times.
At a certain point you have to admit you know all you can know, and there is no more future research. Because if the records aren't there, the most you can do to fill in the blanks is DNA tests, along with perhaps related relevant research.

Also I think you're making overly complicating what is really quite simple.

And you are also projecting your own biases onto DNA research. My test results went back more than a few generations, and assumed mobility in my family.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Genealogy
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top