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Old 03-11-2019, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,918 posts, read 11,169,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Been going through my own clusters, they were:


Cluster 1: 16 members

Cluster 2: 14 members

Cluster 3: 14 members

Cluster 4: 11 members

Cluster 5: 8 members
Cluster 6: 8 members

Cluster 7: 7 members
Cluster 8: 4 members

Cluster 9: 4 members
Cluster 10: 3 members
Cluster 11: 3 members

Cluster 12: 3 members
Cluster 13: 3 members


My grandfather only had 8 clusters


Cluster 1: 18 members
Cluster 2: 10 members
Cluster 3: 7 members
Cluster 4: 6 members
Cluster 5: 5 members
Cluster 6: 4 members
Cluster 7: 4 members
Cluster 8: 3 members


I recognized his first 3 clusters as being 1-2 our Morgan/Bass line and Cluster 3 are our Enos/Allison lines of his maternal ancestry.



4 and 5 also look like they are related to Morgan/Bass though based on me having nearly all of them painted in DNA Painter


Cluster 6 looks like a PA branch that is mysterious that I'm researching.


All his first 6 clusters are maternal.



The last two are his paternal line. Cluster 8 is his paternal grandmother's cluster and I'm not sure of Cluster 7 as his paternal grandfather is a mystery himself (basically disappeared in 1940 - my 2nd great grandmother died in the 1970s and her obit said that he was living in NC but I think that the family lied about that to save face - this side of my family are "really" into their reputation. They were shocked I discovered that the grandma who died in the 1970s had a child before getting with my 2nd great grandfather by another man - found the birth certificate AND I don't believe she ever married my 2nd great grandfather - which is why he is a mystery. They lived in IN when my great grandfather and his older brother were born but I've never found a marriage record for them in IN, KY, MI, IL, or OH).
Thanks for sharing. I remember you saying there was some endogamy in certain branches of your family tree. Do you think this had anything to do with roughly 1/2 of your grandfather's matches being in two clusters.........and that it was pretty easy for you to ID the families involved?

My feeling so far is that Autocluster has been helpful in ways other software is not in making sense out of endogamic clusters.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:06 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
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I have one recognizable cluster out of a dozen. I have no clue on the largest cluter, about twenty matches. The next one includes someone with my surname - bingo. Then there's various clusters of 3 to 5 that are not identifiable. Two people that I know are quite close to me are excluded
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:00 AM
 
Location: NJ
23,790 posts, read 33,254,238 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I've been thinking about that. Check the report to see what the cM range was for your results. It seems to default is 350cM to about 15-25cM. I believe they do this to exclude the closest kin........who should autocluster together because of being such close kin. I think the point of the tool as designed (for most at least) is to try and group more distantly related cousins together.

So, you may be too close of a match to your great aunt's granddaughter (2nd cousin?), while you son slipped under the cM range.

I am interested to hear if any of our Ashkenazi Jewish contributors find this utility helpful. After looking at 7 of these suckers, I am of the feeling they might be most useful to those trying to make sense of endogamous communities.
I tried working on it the last few days; it's a lot of work. The read me file while helpful can be confusing. It specifically says they excluded great aunt V's granddaughter (The following 140 matches met the inclusion criteria but ended up in singleton clusters without other members and are therefore excluded from the analysis as well) but she ended up on my son's. I'm then going to have to try to match her matches on my account to the clusters on my son's account. As I said it's going to be a cold day in hell before I figure any of them out. If my Hungarian cousin ever gets on FB messenger to give me another address to ship his sample to; that should help me figure some of it out. Also if some of my known matches at ancestry from my mothers fathers line would have uploaded, it would have helped.

I was able to see that great aunt V's father was Jewish. All of our common matches only have Jewish in common with them, not Hungarian. I had told her a few weeks ago that I found their surname in a Hungarian Jewish cemetery so I was pretty sure back then that the name was Jewish; now I know I'm right; so My Heritage has been very helpful now that she uploaded there to solve that mystery. I don't think it's his wife because that surname was not in a Jewish cemetery.

I've also seen my daughters fathers paternal side in a Jewish cemetery so am sure that's where part of her Jewish comes from. Now if only someone from her fathers side would upload DNA or take a test at my heritage; or even ancestry.

Last edited by Roselvr; 03-19-2019 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,918 posts, read 11,169,904 times
Reputation: 6111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
I tried working on it the last few days; it's a lot of work. The read me file while helpful can be confusing. It specifically says they excluded great aunt V's granddaughter (The following 140 matches met the inclusion criteria but ended up in singleton clusters without other members and are therefore excluded from the analysis as well) but she ended up on my son's. I'm then going to have to try to match her matches on my account to the clusters on my son's account. As I said it's going to be a cold day in hell before I figure any of them out. If my Hungarian cousin ever gets on FB messenger to give me another address to ship his sample to; that should help me figure some of it out. Also if some of my known matches at ancestry from my mothers fathers line would have uploaded, it would have helped.

I was able to see that great aunt V's father was Jewish. All of our common matches only have Jewish in common with them, not Hungarian. I had told her a few weeks ago that I found their surname in a Hungarian Jewish cemetery so I was pretty sure back then that the name was Jewish; now I know I'm right; so My Heritage has been very helpful now that she uploaded there to solve that mystery. I don't think it's his wife because that surname was not in a Jewish cemetery.

I've also seen my daughters fathers paternal side in a Jewish cemetery so am sure that's where part of her Jewish comes from. Now if only someone from her fathers side would upload DNA or take a test at my heritage; or even ancestry.
My wife has 40-odd singletons, her grandmother has only 16. Good to hear the autocluster helped figure out your Jewish ancestor.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:51 AM
 
Location: NJ
23,790 posts, read 33,254,238 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
My wife has 40-odd singletons, her grandmother has only 16. Good to hear the autocluster helped figure out your Jewish ancestor.
I seem to have a lot of singleton's with all of my samples.

I'm glad I was able to figure it out because no one knew where it came from and if it was correct or not. One of these days I'd like to learn more about that side of the family.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:53 AM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,236,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
I tried working on it the last few days; it's a lot of work. The read me file while helpful can be confusing. It specifically says they excluded great aunt V's granddaughter (The following 140 matches met the inclusion criteria but ended up in singleton clusters without other members and are therefore excluded from the analysis as well) but she ended up on my son's. I'm then going to have to try to match her matches on my account to the clusters on my son's account. As I said it's going to be a cold day in hell before I figure any of them out.
Same here. I kind of know one of my 16 clusters, with only 4 people in it, but it's one of my dead ends on my mom's side and I contacted the person who manages the account (I'm assuming a nephew or great-nephew) of one of these 4 people, they live in Poland, and I even used Google translate to write the email in Polish and English, just in case they didn't know English that well, no response.

It's really interesting, I have a match on MyHeritage, who is also on Ancestry that I know is my 2nd cousin (my grandfather and his grandmother were siblings) and he matches to my 3 largest clusters which have 13 people, 10 people and 9 people respectively, and some of these other people in those clusters have nice huge trees of 200 to 2,000 to 3,000. So I know those three clusters are on my mom's side of the tree, but looking at their trees, obviously they could be wrong, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and some of the trees go back to the 1700's and I still can't find the common ancestor for the life of me!

I did write to Ancestry to suggest that since they will probably never offer a chromosome browser to do something like AutoClusters, now that would be amazing, and they can obviously do it with a simple program. I mean they already tell you your shared matches of a match using just DNA. I guess you could try and use that info and create your own AutoClusters in Ancestry, but it would be convenient if they offered something similar. And I think it would be even better than ThruLines since it's relying on just the raw DNA data and not trees (which could be wrong).
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:46 PM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,742,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Thanks for sharing. I remember you saying there was some endogamy in certain branches of your family tree. Do you think this had anything to do with roughly 1/2 of your grandfather's matches being in two clusters.........and that it was pretty easy for you to ID the families involved?

My feeling so far is that Autocluster has been helpful in ways other software is not in making sense out of endogamic clusters.

On the bold - yes I do.



My grandfather's maternal ancestry is heavily endogamous.



The Morgan/Bass line and Enos/Allison lines both moved to a particular community in Ontario, Canada in the mid 1840s and I've identified some people on ancestry.com in his DNA matches that share chromosome positions who are related to both of these families.


I also have discovered our Morgan line has some PA roots from the early 1600s to 1700s so lots going on in his maternal ancestry.



It was easy for me to see the clusters because prior to this cluster tool, I had labeled a significant amount of my grandfather's matches to what family line they belonged to. I use DNA Painter to paint chromosomes so had went through most of his top matches and "painted" them and had determined via shared matches the top matches who are related via his Morgan/Bass and Enos/Allison family lines.



One of his first cousins on the maternal side also tested. Via her and his test, I discovered an 2nd cousin who we confirmed who the most recent common ancestor was and she is the Enos/Allison line. I've confirmed many people who match her and my grandfather and his first cousin also are descendants of their 2nd great grandparents who belong to those surnames. So they are easy for me to identify based on the cluster tool, when you open in in a web page and scroll down, it shows the notes associated with each person and so I could see which persons I had notes on and know which family line they belong to.



Issues come up because the Enos/Allison line married into another PA ancestral line and I believe that line may also be connected to the Morgan family via the distant PA roots. The Morgan/Bass line came from NC to IN to Canada in the 1840s-1850s, but as noted, they started in PA so I think some distant PA Morgans may have married into another of my grandfathers maternal PA lines as there is a consistent segment of Morgan DNA in some of these PA relatives chromosomes.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,918 posts, read 11,169,904 times
Reputation: 6111
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
On the bold - yes I do.



My grandfather's maternal ancestry is heavily endogamous.



The Morgan/Bass line and Enos/Allison lines both moved to a particular community in Ontario, Canada in the mid 1840s and I've identified some people on ancestry.com in his DNA matches that share chromosome positions who are related to both of these families.


I also have discovered our Morgan line has some PA roots from the early 1600s to 1700s so lots going on in his maternal ancestry.



It was easy for me to see the clusters because prior to this cluster tool, I had labeled a significant amount of my grandfather's matches to what family line they belonged to. I use DNA Painter to paint chromosomes so had went through most of his top matches and "painted" them and had determined via shared matches the top matches who are related via his Morgan/Bass and Enos/Allison family lines.



One of his first cousins on the maternal side also tested. Via her and his test, I discovered an 2nd cousin who we confirmed who the most recent common ancestor was and she is the Enos/Allison line. I've confirmed many people who match her and my grandfather and his first cousin also are descendants of their 2nd great grandparents who belong to those surnames. So they are easy for me to identify based on the cluster tool, when you open in in a web page and scroll down, it shows the notes associated with each person and so I could see which persons I had notes on and know which family line they belong to.



Issues come up because the Enos/Allison line married into another PA ancestral line and I believe that line may also be connected to the Morgan family via the distant PA roots. The Morgan/Bass line came from NC to IN to Canada in the 1840s-1850s, but as noted, they started in PA so I think some distant PA Morgans may have married into another of my grandfathers maternal PA lines as there is a consistent segment of Morgan DNA in some of these PA relatives chromosomes.
Thanks for the reply. Your last paragraph is interesting as well. Nearly all of my autoclusters showed at least a weak connection (the grey dots) to other clusters for the reason you surmise; with so many ancestors from a small geographic region, it is very likely many are "common cousins" who match you and your cousin, person X, but maybe through different lines.

I've got some free time coming up, I hope to be able to do a deeper dive into these autoclusters.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:42 AM
 
Location: The High Desert
15,979 posts, read 10,541,690 times
Reputation: 31139
I like that the testing companies are trying to come up with useful tools and aids but they need to be understandable intuitively...something a person can pick up and use. This Autocluster tool as well as some GedMatch oracle tools and the MatchMaker tool on some Facebook sites are confusing or an example of piles of data without providing information. There will be people who are so frustrated trying to understand the tools that they give up.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:42 AM
 
Location: NJ
23,790 posts, read 33,254,238 times
Reputation: 30591
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
I like that the testing companies are trying to come up with useful tools and aids but they need to be understandable intuitively...something a person can pick up and use. This Autocluster tool as well as some GedMatch oracle tools and the MatchMaker tool on some Facebook sites are confusing or an example of piles of data without providing information. There will be people who are so frustrated trying to understand the tools that they give up.
You really have to read the help file; hopefully you don't have the amount of excluded that I do. I have not gone over my kids yet to compare with mine. It's just way over my head with not having my own parents to test because I'm sure my father got DNA that my uncle did not.

Last edited by Roselvr; 03-21-2019 at 10:06 AM..
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