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Old 11-10-2020, 10:13 PM
 
2 posts, read 4,800 times
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Though she never talked much about it before she died, I remember when I was young my mother occasionally making references to having had some Native American ancestors on her father's side. She never spoke too much about it & offered very few details; but always claimed there was some "half-breed shirt-tail relation there, somewhere." Well I recently learned through genealogy research, my mother's ancestors actually had a very strong Cherokee connection; including 3 generations on the Trail of Tears at the same time. Her g-g-grandfather had married a Chief's daughter, or some such. There was a connection with Moytoy, Miller, & Hicks. I have very little information beyond what I've provided here but would appreciate if someone could help me figure out how much Native blood I have in me? Or point me to some resources that could help fit pieces together? Thanks ~
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Old 11-11-2020, 06:16 AM
 
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These may help (or help guide you):

https://www.cherokee.org/all-service...y-information/

https://www.cherokeeheritage.org/che...am-i-cherokee/

You should look at the U.S. Census Records too.
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Old 11-11-2020, 08:58 AM
 
11,869 posts, read 4,736,403 times
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They might've been on the Dawes rolls.


https://www.okhistory.org/research/dawes
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Old 01-13-2021, 01:59 PM
 
305 posts, read 562,319 times
Reputation: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogindaup View Post
Though she never talked much about it before she died, I remember when I was young my mother occasionally making references to having had some Native American ancestors on her father's side. She never spoke too much about it & offered very few details; but always claimed there was some "half-breed shirt-tail relation there, somewhere." Well I recently learned through genealogy research, my mother's ancestors actually had a very strong Cherokee connection; including 3 generations on the Trail of Tears at the same time. Her g-g-grandfather had married a Chief's daughter, or some such. There was a connection with Moytoy, Miller, & Hicks. I have very little information beyond what I've provided here but would appreciate if someone could help me figure out how much Native blood I have in me? Or point me to some resources that could help fit pieces together? Thanks ~
The information you provided seems like a legendary Indian Blood Myth story. When I see chief, Moytoy, Hicks and a mom that don't talk much,....is suspect.

You would be wise to contact one of the Cherokee tribes you "think" you have lineage from.
Home - United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma
https://www.cherokee.org/
https://ebci.com/

Moytoy is a name many people claim descent to is a mythical family tree. If you tell this to a Cherokee, you will be laughed at. Haha. Amadoya Moytoy has manufactured family trees online by pseudo Cherokee tribes. If you are saying you have relation to him, you must be using wikitrees and fake family trees. Cherokee did not keep records as they had no written language until the early 19th century. Moytoy is born in 1647 and died in 1741. Little is know about his wife, family or descendants. There is no family tree of this person in the Cherokee Nation. Meaning, not even a Cherokee Indian could prove relation to this man and no [enrolled member] Cherokee claims descent to him. I think you have incorrect and/or manufactured information. Besides all this, Cherokee had clans which were matriarchal. before colonialism, Cherokee citizenship with given by the mother, not the father. A Cherokee man could have a baby with a European woman, the child is not Cherokee.

The names Hicks and Miller are common European surnames which are also found in Cherokee due to race mixing. Cherokee people did not have surnames. Mixed bloods took on surnames in the 18th century. They indicate European lineage, not Indian. Surnames were taken for different reason, sometimes in admiration. A Cherokee on the Dawes roll with the last name of Miller and finding Miller in your family does not = Cherokee. Proving descent via birth certificate, going back, and back to the recognized member is evidence if they are BB (Bly blood). If you can't find them on the Dawes, there are other rolls but you need to prove the connection.

There are three well documented Cherokee tribes. The United Keetoowah and Cherokee Nation are out in OK and the United Eastern Band is in NC. The Keetoowah left to Arkansas in the late 1700's before the other Cherokee in 1835-1838 to Indian Territory, OK. Eastern Band is still in NC today.

Early rolls document Cherokee before the trail of tears. The rolls having names and families "By Blood" carrying from roll to roll were verified by previous rolls.

Before Removal
Reservation Rolls – 1817
Emigration Rolls – 1817-1835
Henderson Roll – 1835

After -
Mullay Roll – 1848 - Roll of Indians left after removal
Siler Roll – 1851
Old Settler Roll – 1851 - Main group of Cherokee arriving in territory
Chapman Roll – 1852
Drennen Roll – 1852
Act of Congress Roll – 1854
Swetland Roll – 1869
Hester Roll – 1883
Wallace Roll – 1888
Kern-Clifton Roll – 1896-1897
1896 Applications for Enrollment (Overturned) – 1896
Dawes Rolls – 1898-1907 (Final Cherokee Nation and Keetoowah)
Churchill Roll – 1908
Guion Miller Roll – 1909
Baker Roll – 1924 (Final Eastern Band Cherokee)
Keetoowah Base Roll – 1949

When all else fails, and you want to see if you have suggestions of Indigenous ancestry, take a DNA test, 23andMe. It won't prove Cherokee but you can see if you have recent ancestry from Indigenous people. If you have one within 3-5, especially 3 generations of 1 fullblood ancestor, should show something.

Last edited by AppalachianGumbo; 01-13-2021 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 01-13-2021, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
9,667 posts, read 15,169,014 times
Reputation: 12740
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogindaup View Post
Though she never talked much about it before she died, I remember when I was young my mother occasionally making references to having had some Native American ancestors on her father's side. She never spoke too much about it & offered very few details; but always claimed there was some "half-breed shirt-tail relation there, somewhere." Well I recently learned through genealogy research, my mother's ancestors actually had a very strong Cherokee connection; including 3 generations on the Trail of Tears at the same time. Her g-g-grandfather had married a Chief's daughter, or some such. There was a connection with Moytoy, Miller, & Hicks. I have very little information beyond what I've provided here but would appreciate if someone could help me figure out how much Native blood I have in me? Or point me to some resources that could help fit pieces together? Thanks ~
Your mom's 2nd great grandmother is your 3rd great grandmother - we inherit about 3% from a 3rd great grandparent - on paper, anyway. In reality, we do not inherit the same amount of DNA from each ancestor.
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Old 01-14-2021, 10:16 AM
 
Location: NJ
15,994 posts, read 24,727,958 times
Reputation: 15940
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppalachianGumbo View Post
The information you provided seems like a legendary Indian Blood Myth story. When I see chief, Moytoy, Hicks and a mom that don't talk much,....is suspect.

You would be wise to contact one of the Cherokee tribes you "think" you have lineage from.
Home - United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma
https://www.cherokee.org/
https://ebci.com/

Moytoy is a name many people claim descent to is a mythical family tree. If you tell this to a Cherokee, you will be laughed at. Haha. Amadoya Moytoy has manufactured family trees online by pseudo Cherokee tribes. If you are saying you have relation to him, you must be using wikitrees and fake family trees. Cherokee did not keep records as they had no written language until the early 19th century. Moytoy is born in 1647 and died in 1741. Little is know about his wife, family or descendants. There is no family tree of this person in the Cherokee Nation. Meaning, not even a Cherokee Indian could prove relation to this man and no [enrolled member] Cherokee claims descent to him. I think you have incorrect and/or manufactured information. Besides all this, Cherokee had clans which were matriarchal. before colonialism, Cherokee citizenship with given by the mother, not the father. A Cherokee man could have a baby with a European woman, the child is not Cherokee.

The names Hicks and Miller are common European surnames which are also found in Cherokee due to race mixing. Cherokee people did not have surnames. Mixed bloods took on surnames in the 18th century. They indicate European lineage, not Indian. Surnames were taken for different reason, sometimes in admiration. A Cherokee on the Dawes roll with the last name of Miller and finding Miller in your family does not = Cherokee. Proving descent via birth certificate, going back, and back to the recognized member is evidence if they are BB (Bly blood). If you can't find them on the Dawes, there are other rolls but you need to prove the connection.

There are three well documented Cherokee tribes. The United Keetoowah and Cherokee Nation are out in OK and the United Eastern Band is in NC. The Keetoowah left to Arkansas in the late 1700's before the other Cherokee in 1835-1838 to Indian Territory, OK. Eastern Band is still in NC today.

Early rolls document Cherokee before the trail of tears. The rolls having names and families "By Blood" carrying from roll to roll were verified by previous rolls.

Before Removal
Reservation Rolls – 1817
Emigration Rolls – 1817-1835
Henderson Roll – 1835

After -
Mullay Roll – 1848 - Roll of Indians left after removal
Siler Roll – 1851
Old Settler Roll – 1851 - Main group of Cherokee arriving in territory
Chapman Roll – 1852
Drennen Roll – 1852
Act of Congress Roll – 1854
Swetland Roll – 1869
Hester Roll – 1883
Wallace Roll – 1888
Kern-Clifton Roll – 1896-1897
1896 Applications for Enrollment (Overturned) – 1896
Dawes Rolls – 1898-1907 (Final Cherokee Nation and Keetoowah)
Churchill Roll – 1908
Guion Miller Roll – 1909
Baker Roll – 1924 (Final Eastern Band Cherokee)
Keetoowah Base Roll – 1949

When all else fails, and you want to see if you have suggestions of Indigenous ancestry, take a DNA test, 23andMe. It won't prove Cherokee but you can see if you have recent ancestry from Indigenous people. If you have one within 3-5, especially 3 generations of 1 fullblood ancestor, should show something.
Even though the OP may not come back to benefit from your awesome information, I appreciate it as do others here and people who google.

I had googled something for my son's ex GF because she was disappointed there was no NA blood showing with the ancestry DNA kit my son got her for her birthday. I had googled something like shovel teeth, up came one of your replies from a thread here.

The shovel teeth are a pretty good reply to these posters that have this NA relative not talked about much. Ask them to look in the mirror to see if they have shovel teeth. Guaranteed they do not. I'm not sure how many generations it takes for shovel teeth to stop in relatives.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:47 AM
 
Location: The High Desert
10,559 posts, read 5,685,584 times
Reputation: 19789
This topic is one of those odd genealogical semi-myths that always float around and come up through family stories at the Thanksgiving table. I don't dismiss it but it is almost always unverifiable. The available resources and tribal listings undoubtedly missed some people so there is smoke but not fire in some of the stories.

One of my ancestors was a Dutch trader and an interpreter among the Mohawk Indians in the 1600s. They supposedly liked him so much that they gave him some land (true) and an Indian wife (untrue) so there were stories and hints about an Indian in the family until the wife's birth record was found in the Netherlands. But did he have two wives -- one in town and one deep in the woods? Mohawk families were matrilineal and matrilocal so there could be some truth to the family story as history but not genealogy.

The Trail of Tears went through Missouri. where I come from and lived for 65 years, and there were stories of Cherokee people who simply walked away and melted into the wilderness along the route to Oklahoma. There is supposedly an unrecognized band of "Northern Cherokee" people based in Missouri who were still trying to gain Federal recognition. That seems to be not much more than a club of people who think they are Cherokee but I don't think that that effort went anywhere. I worked in the State Archives as a research volunteer for several years and never saw any documentation of these stories. For one example, there was an Indian woman living in the Ozarks who was a midwife in the pre-Civil War era. Some stories say she was Cherokee and others say Osage. That is probably a true story but it's not verifiable that great-grandma was delivered by an Indian woman. There are people living mostly off the radar in the Ozarks today so I would not be surprised that there were other unaccounted-for people, maybe Cherokee transients, there in the 1840s-1850s. Some Cherokee people moved west on their own before the Trail of Tears.
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Old 01-14-2021, 12:45 PM
 
305 posts, read 562,319 times
Reputation: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
Even though the OP may not come back to benefit from your awesome information, I appreciate it as do others here and people who google.

I had googled something for my son's ex GF because she was disappointed there was no NA blood showing with the ancestry DNA kit my son got her for her birthday. I had googled something like shovel teeth, up came one of your replies from a thread here.

The shovel teeth are a pretty good reply to these posters that have this NA relative not talked about much. Ask them to look in the mirror to see if they have shovel teeth. Guaranteed they do not. I'm not sure how many generations it takes for shovel teeth to stop in relatives.
Thank you Rose.

As far as inheritance, this may assist below.

Shovel teeth are tied to the EDAR variant found mostly in Natives/East Asians. The more additive of the EDAR V370A, the stronger the shoveling. If this gene is not inherited, shovel teeth are normally not seen. It is possible for Native/East Asian (more so Natives) populations not to inherit this variant to due admixture.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5948952/

Fig. A No North Americans Natives are in the sample. This figure, we find Natives who do not have the EDAR variant due to non-inheritance from Europeans who are absent of this. Two fullblood Natives would have higher EDAR V370A variant.

"Because these data are from living people, the Native American data include significant admixture from European colonization, a population with essentially no occurrence of EDAR V370A. These modern data likely vastly underrepresent the occurrence of EDAR V370A among indigenous people before European contact"

Fig. B Due to admixture, Natives samples are shoveling is commonly 2-4, majority 3 in these samples.
" Histogram showing EDAR V370A genotype and degree of incisor shoveling, demonstrating the imperfect but strongly additive nature of EDAR V370A’s influence on incisor shoveling.

Fig. C - Not modern population only archaeological
" Frequencies of incisor shoveling scores observed in archaeological populations from Africa, Europe, South Asia, East Asia, North America, and South America (Table S1). Purple and blue represent a lack of incisor shoveling, and as such, an individual who is EDAR V370A−/−. Note the lack of shoveling scores of 0 and 1, and very low occurrence of 2, in the indigenous people of the Western Hemisphere, indicating a very high frequency of EDAR V370A before European contact"




Here are the degrees of tooth shoveling, scaled.



https://www.researchgate.net/figure/..._fig1_38055847

Last edited by AppalachianGumbo; 01-14-2021 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 01-14-2021, 05:02 PM
 
963 posts, read 995,079 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppalachianGumbo View Post
The information you provided seems like a legendary Indian Blood Myth story. When I see chief, Moytoy, Hicks and a mom that don't talk much,....is suspect.

You would be wise to contact one of the Cherokee tribes you "think" you have lineage from.
Home - United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma
https://www.cherokee.org/
https://ebci.com/

Moytoy is a name many people claim descent to is a mythical family tree. If you tell this to a Cherokee, you will be laughed at. Haha. Amadoya Moytoy has manufactured family trees online by pseudo Cherokee tribes. If you are saying you have relation to him, you must be using wikitrees and fake family trees. Cherokee did not keep records as they had no written language until the early 19th century. Moytoy is born in 1647 and died in 1741. Little is know about his wife, family or descendants. There is no family tree of this person in the Cherokee Nation. Meaning, not even a Cherokee Indian could prove relation to this man and no [enrolled member] Cherokee claims descent to him. I think you have incorrect and/or manufactured information. Besides all this, Cherokee had clans which were matriarchal. before colonialism, Cherokee citizenship with given by the mother, not the father. A Cherokee man could have a baby with a European woman, the child is not Cherokee.

The names Hicks and Miller are common European surnames which are also found in Cherokee due to race mixing. Cherokee people did not have surnames. Mixed bloods took on surnames in the 18th century. They indicate European lineage, not Indian. Surnames were taken for different reason, sometimes in admiration. A Cherokee on the Dawes roll with the last name of Miller and finding Miller in your family does not = Cherokee. Proving descent via birth certificate, going back, and back to the recognized member is evidence if they are BB (Bly blood). If you can't find them on the Dawes, there are other rolls but you need to prove the connection.

There are three well documented Cherokee tribes. The United Keetoowah and Cherokee Nation are out in OK and the United Eastern Band is in NC. The Keetoowah left to Arkansas in the late 1700's before the other Cherokee in 1835-1838 to Indian Territory, OK. Eastern Band is still in NC today.

Early rolls document Cherokee before the trail of tears. The rolls having names and families "By Blood" carrying from roll to roll were verified by previous rolls.

Before Removal
Reservation Rolls – 1817
Emigration Rolls – 1817-1835
Henderson Roll – 1835

After -
Mullay Roll – 1848 - Roll of Indians left after removal
Siler Roll – 1851
Old Settler Roll – 1851 - Main group of Cherokee arriving in territory
Chapman Roll – 1852
Drennen Roll – 1852
Act of Congress Roll – 1854
Swetland Roll – 1869
Hester Roll – 1883
Wallace Roll – 1888
Kern-Clifton Roll – 1896-1897
1896 Applications for Enrollment (Overturned) – 1896
Dawes Rolls – 1898-1907 (Final Cherokee Nation and Keetoowah)
Churchill Roll – 1908
Guion Miller Roll – 1909
Baker Roll – 1924 (Final Eastern Band Cherokee)
Keetoowah Base Roll – 1949

When all else fails, and you want to see if you have suggestions of Indigenous ancestry, take a DNA test, 23andMe. It won't prove Cherokee but you can see if you have recent ancestry from Indigenous people. If you have one within 3-5, especially 3 generations of 1 fullblood ancestor, should show something.
+1 and I couldn't think of a better summary of everything relevant for people trying to verify rumored ancestry!
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:02 AM
 
12,644 posts, read 19,008,838 times
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Wondering if anyone has any ideas for finding out what tribe our great... grandmothers Native American name is or the tribe she is from. What we have is a photo of her and her married white name. She is from Canada/Michigan side. Thanks,
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