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Same goes for the Rio Grande Valley. Having been to both of those places, I just didn't see them as Southern at all. Now Houston, the first time I visited, screamed "South" at me everywhere I went. Dallas and San Antonio, not so much. Texas is a huge state geographically and has a complicated history.
This is an interesting one. I see your point and agree on many levels. That is, as concerns Dallas and San Antonio (and Austin, for that matter).
The essence of old Dallas is Southern. It for sure has a "Southern" history in its formative years and even remaining so until comparatively recently. I remember when the only "suburbs" between Dallas and Ft. Worth were just Arlington, Grand Prarie, and Irving, and they were even semi-isolated.
Today though? One really has to know what they are looking for, or know where to go, as in the sense of finding the original Southern character. If that makes sense.
San Antonio. Hmmmm. It has been called a combination of "Old South and Old Mexico."
Austin? Its history and formation were unquestionably Southern. But even more than Dallas, the demographics may even exceed that of the DFW area in terms of change in the sense of Texan/Southern.
I think many in Texas still see Dallas as more of a frontier town. Houston was never a frontier town. Ft. Worth was founded as a frontier fort. Dallas came to be due to being chosen by the railroads. But still if you go around near Waco and some of the towns near there like Marlin for example it is VERY southern and was big cotton as big cotton could get. I'd agree that Dallas is more southern, but can easily see why many would think of it more as a frontier town.
I have also always gotten more of a 'weatern' or frontier feeling in and of Ausitn. The older buildings down on Congress and 6th Streets and most of the older houses give me more of a frontier appearance than southern. And San Antonio is very much south Texas. To me there is really nothing southern about SA at all.
Here is what I think is wrong with that poll you posted. I have always thought of a small part of Texas as southern. East Texas. And while that is only one small part of Texas that is where most of the population (those polled) lives. I just don't get the same southern feel outside of east Texas.
Florida is pretty southern outside of Orlando and then the southern four counties.
I have heard Texans say there are really 4 distinct regions of Texas, based on what the Republic of Texas's Constitution said about the state potentially being split if it got too big to govern.
East Texas- Centered around Houston, seems pretty southern to an outsider
North Texas- Centered around Dallas and Austin (?), seems more cosmopolitan with people from everywhere and a big Midwestern influence
South Texas- Similar to Mexico in architechture and city layouts
West Texas- El Paso portion similar to Mexico, very southwestern
Where does the Panhandle fit in?
I don't think that Hispanic migration will make a place less southern. Chicago has the second largest Mexican population in the US (well above Houston actually), but it doesn't feel western.
East Texas is more on it's own. It basses itself on Houston and Dallas. It's more southern.This is where you'll find most of your African Americans, who if are not here are either in Dallas or Houston.
North (including the panhandle) and Central Texas is getting less southern and more Midwestern. You can still hear the Texas accent though. Who ever isn't white here is Hispanic.
West Texas (and South Texas) is pretty much Beaner-town. West Texas and New Mexico are almost the same thing. I don't have too much experience with South Texas... but yeah. And it is comparatively similar to Mexico, but not completely.
Here is what I think is wrong with that poll you posted. I have always thought of a small part of Texas as southern. East Texas. And while that is only one small part of Texas that is where most of the population (those polled) lives. I just don't get the same southern feel outside of east Texas.
Well, if you are referring to the poll I posted, then I do not understand what you see as wrong with it, save that it might not match your own experiences and observations. Which is fine, far as that goes. However, since it spanned seven years, 14 seperate surveys, and some 17,000 people, as it is, this was the most extensive regional sociological survey ever done on the subject of self-identification with a region (and another one almost as extensive yielded the same general results...I'll post that one soon).
Anyway, not trying to be condecending in the least -- so I hope you don't take it that way -- but from the way I read your missive, is that you question the poll results because they don't match up with your own opinions. Again, nothing wrong with that, but fact is, polling spanned the whole of all the states. Not just East Texas (or North Alabama or West Tennessee, or South Florida). Where in the world did you come by that summation (that it was only confined to a limited part of the state?) As it is even a majority of west Texans clearly identified with the South as opposed to the West (the exception was the trans-pecos area).
You can look up the data base yourself. From the "Southern Focus Poll" out of the "Center For the Study of the American South" from the U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Bottom line is that consistently, in 13 states (11 Old Confederate States plus Kentucky and Oklahoma, with West Virginia coming very close) a clear majority of residents self-identified with the South and considered themselves to be Southerners. Year after year and time after time. West Texas too (which is not surprising since the southeastern states is where most of the original settlers came from and made the dominant historical and cultural mark).
Here is what I think is wrong with that poll you posted. I have always thought of a small part of Texas as southern. East Texas. And while that is only one small part of Texas that is where most of the population (those polled) lives. I just don't get the same southern feel outside of east Texas.
I see a little bit more what you mean now. So again, sorry if my earlier reply came out a little patronizing or blunt, it wasn't intended.
Anyway, yes, since a majority of the population lives in the eastern half of the state, then obviously that would be where a disproportionate number of people were polled. However, it was broken down a bit, and even though there was still the expected east/west gradient, a large plurality of the respondents even in most of West Texans said they lived in the South (the exception was in the trans-pecos where, expectedly, the affiliation was 'West"). Hope that clears it up!
Florida is pretty southern outside of Orlando and then the southern four counties.
I have heard Texans say there are really 4 distinct regions of Texas, based on what the Republic of Texas's Constitution said about the state potentially being split if it got too big to govern.
East Texas- Centered around Houston, seems pretty southern to an outsider
North Texas- Centered around Dallas and Austin (?), seems more cosmopolitan with people from everywhere and a big Midwestern influence
South Texas- Similar to Mexico in architechture and city layouts
West Texas- El Paso portion similar to Mexico, very southwestern
Where does the Panhandle fit in?
I don't think that Hispanic migration will make a place less southern. Chicago has the second largest Mexican population in the US (well above Houston actually), but it doesn't feel western.
This is all wrong. Texas isn't considered southern simply because of it's location. It sits within multiple cultural regions. You won't find many people out in West and South Texas claiming to be southerners because historically and culturally; those areas have never really identified with the south (There are exceptions though).
Anyways:
East Texas is split between Houston and Dallas. NETX goes to Dallas and SETX goes to Houston.
North Texas is strictly DFW territory. Austin isn't in NTX.
You're about right with South Texas.
West Texas is much more than El Paso. Lubbock, Midland, Amarillo, Odessa and more. Many of these cities actually have strong southern qualities.
Austin is located in Central Texas and that area is heavily influenced by Austin, Houston,San Antonio and Dallas.
Thanks for the info and insight guys. I would have to say that Georgia would still very much be a "deep south" state, regardless if Mexicans spread through many corners of our state.
Why? Because if you look at Texas, I personally think that areas of the state that are in the vicinity of neighboring regions (like the panhandle and southeast Texas) still very much take on the character of those regions, despite the influx of Mexicans.
Take Port Arthur for an example. That's still "Deep South" to me, despite the 24.7% Hispanic pop.
Thanks you!!!! Its the same with Texas. No matter how many mexicans come in, the state is still going to be a southern state.
Arizona, NM and NV had more SW charm from the get go, while the original Texas settlements were mainly cotton and other areas of agriculture. Ranching was never as big in the Brazos area and east texas as it was in the western parts and the northern parts.
I hear people say that Texas is not Southern because it has too many mexicans (same with Florida and Hispanics). Will Georgia and North Carolina become western states when hispanics become the number one minority?
since when does a state's location change because of its demographics?
I think it is silly when people say Texas is not Southern because it has too much latin influence.
It does not matter what influence it has, it is in the south, it is a southern state.
I guess NY is becoming a western state too.
how many people believe a state's location changes as the demographics of the state changes
There's a problem with the premise of this thread, and that is that it's impossible to remain Southern if Latinos move into an area. In addition, there's an implicit assumption that Latinos, by themselves, make an area Western.
I always thought "Western states" were Western states because they were located in the West, not because of some demographic characteristic. I guess that would make states like Montana (#1 minority = Native American) non-Western because they don't have very many Latinos. I guess the Bay Area and Seattle aren't Western because the largest minority there are Asians, not Latinos.
With Texas, I always have thought of it as the Western part of the South. It definitely IS in the Southern part of the United State. However, more to the point, I think of Texas as Texas. Once you get over the pigeonholing, you begin to realize to appreciate the complexity of a place after peeling away at old stereotypes.
There's a problem with the premise of this thread, and that is that it's impossible to remain Southern if Latinos move into an area. In addition, there's an implicit assumption that Latinos, by themselves, make an area Western.
if that is what you think the premise is, then you are reading backwards. The premise is that NO MATTER WHO MOVES IN THE STATE WOULD REMAIN SOUTHERN.
what I said was that people claim that Texas is not southern because of the many latinos there. It is a silly argument and I was poking fun at it
Quote:
I always thought "Western states" were Western states because they were located in the West, not because of some demographic characteristic. I guess that would make states like Montana (#1 minority = Native American) non-Western because they don't have very many Latinos. I guess the Bay Area and Seattle aren't Western because the largest minority there are Asians, not Latinos.
With Texas, I always have thought of it as the Western part of the South. It definitely IS in the Southern part of the United State. However, more to the point, I think of Texas as Texas. Once you get over the pigeonholing, you begin to realize to appreciate the complexity of a place after peeling away at old stereotypes.
well you are basically along the lines of my thoughts in this part. Yes Texas is Texas, Louisiana is Louisiana, Florida is Florida, they are all Southern states with different identities. Texas being the western part, Florida the more Caribbean part.
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