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Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,092,866 times
Reputation: 1028
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Originally Posted by Gnutella
Yet another commonality between Chicago and Philadelphia: a cohort of residents who turn their backs on the states they're located in.
Even though people on here disagree..St. Louis is pretty much the same with Missouri. I can tell you personally that as a St. Louisan myself I don't identify with the rest of the state very well at all. Kansas City is much more tied to Missouri than St. Louis. As a way of further proving this, St. Louis has existed much longer as a city than Missouri has as a state. Nevertheless, all three, Kansas City, St. Louis, Missouri have earned their rightful place in the Midwest, with all three leaning decidedly towards that region.
As to those who attacked me earlier, I didn't realize I needed to get so in depth to explain my logic.
No-one "attacked" you. You posted something that was totally false and that was pointed out by a couple people. You are the one who went on the warpath insisting you are right.
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The Upper Peninsula of Michigan is very different from the Mitten. as far as the mitten is concerned, Detroit has a lot in common with Michigan.
The UP is a totally different horse than Detroit. The rest of the mitten is also totally different than Detroit. How much time have you spent in Michigan that you can hold so rigidly to your stand? I have spent decades here, I do know what the layout of the State is and it isn't from "talking" to people.. it comes from living here. You are wrong; Plain and simple. I cannot understand how you can continue to argue that you are right when EVERYBODY is telling you you're wrong. When people who actually LIVE here are telling you, you are wrong. Must be nice to be so blindly oblivious to the real World and facts.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,092,866 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTVols865
It is definitely very southern in Missouri south of Cape Girardeau/Scott City. People in Cape Girardeau consider themselves Midwestern while people in the Bootheel consider themselves southern.
Like I said, MO is a mixture of everything: Midwesterners in northern tier and urban areas, rednecks/Southerners in the Bootheel, and rednecks/hillbillies in the Ozark region.
You are classifying Missouri as too mixed identify based on a small part of the state. And the Ozarks are a mix of both. The northern half is solidly Midwestern in both rural and urban areas. You are contradicting your own reasoning because you included it on this list. If you don't consider it to be the Midwest, don't include it, even though you'd be wrong to do so.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,092,866 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bydand
No-one "attacked" you. You posted something that was totally false and that was pointed out by a couple people. You are the one who went on the warpath insisting you are right.
The UP is a totally different horse than Detroit. The rest of the mitten is also totally different than Detroit. How much time have you spent in Michigan that you can hold so rigidly to your stand? I have spent decades here, I do know what the layout of the State is and it isn't from "talking" to people.. it comes from living here. You are wrong; Plain and simple. I cannot understand how you can continue to argue that you are right when EVERYBODY is telling you you're wrong. When people who actually LIVE here are telling you, you are wrong. Must be nice to be so blindly oblivious to the real World and facts.
The only people who have told me i'm wrong are three individuals on here. Compared to people I know for a fact who have grown up there, this makes no sense. Saying Detroit is nothing like the rest of Michigan is saying Milwaukee is nothing like the rest of Wisconsin, etc. You're telling me that Flint, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Port Huron, etc. are completely different from Detroit, absolutely no commonalities? That sounds more like somebody who hasn't lived there than me. It's not the time I've spent there...it's the consistent feedback I get from college friends and personal relatives. My aunt grew up in Michigan and her close family still resides there. Detroit is different from Michigan but it's also got a lot of industrial and cultural commonalities with a large chunk of the mitten. So that's why my story doesn't change.
You can end this anytime you want to. I don't feel you are correct, you don't think I'm correct. Let's just agree to disagree and call it a truce. None of you pointed out I was wrong...you all attacked me like I said something negative about your spouse. THe mitten is well under half the vertical length of Illinois, so it's not unreasonable to think that Detroit would exert an influence on a considerable portion of the lower mitten, as well as be influenced by the mitten itself. Illinois is a very vertically tall state, with the center far from Chicago. tHere is no conceivable way that Detroit could be an outlier in Michigan, especially considering how big of a city it once was. I suppose by your logic, New York City is more like the rest of New York than New Jersey? If you look at Michigan's metropolitan statistical areas, you will see a pretty continuous stretch of urban cities within less than 100 miles of each other between Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Saginaw.
Detroit at minimum exerts considerable influence over the southern half of the mitten.
Last edited by stlouisan; 02-27-2012 at 08:46 PM..
The only people who have told me i'm wrong are three individuals on here. Compared to people I know for a fact who have grown up there, this makes no sense. Saying Detroit is nothing like the rest of Michigan is saying Milwaukee is nothing like the rest of Wisconsin, etc. You're telling me that Flint, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Port Huron, etc. are completely different from Detroit, absolutely no commonalities? That sounds more like somebody who hasn't lived there than me. It's not the time I've spent there...it's the consistent feedback I get from college friends and personal relatives. My aunt grew up in Michigan and her close family still resides there. Detroit is different from Michigan but it's also got a lot of industrial and cultural commonalities with a large chunk of the mitten. So that's why my story doesn't change.
You can end this anytime you want to. I don't feel you are correct, you don't think I'm correct. Let's just agree to disagree and call it a truce. None of you pointed out I was wrong...you all attacked me like I said something negative about your spouse. THe mitten is well under half the vertical length of Illinois, so it's not unreasonable to think that Detroit would exert an influence on a considerable portion of the lower mitten, as well as be influenced by the mitten itself. Illinois is a very vertically tall state, with the center far from Chicago. tHere is no conceivable way that Detroit could be an outlier in Michigan, especially considering how big of a city it once was. I suppose by your logic, New York City is more like the rest of New York than New Jersey? If you look at Michigan's metropolitan statistical areas, you will see a pretty continuous stretch of urban cities within less than 100 miles of each other between Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Saginaw.
Detroit at minimum exerts considerable influence over the southern half of the mitten.
I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say, but what I can say is that East Michigan and West Michigan are in fact different. It is the same state, but someone who loves life on the West side of the state would probably tell you they'd never move to the east side in a million years.
The UP is quite different than the LP, that's just normal, when you have a state that is so big, things tend to be different. Look at northern california vs southern california. Does that mean they don't belong in the same state? Absolutely not.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the southern half of the mitten, because that would mean you'd be referring to Grand Rapids. If you tried to tell people from Grand Rapids that it is the same thing as Detroit and " highly influenced" by Detroit you'd surely be laughed out of there. We do things a million times better than Detroit.. sorry
In Michigan, we can however agree that we all hate Ohio, the Blackhawks and Sidney Crosby.
The rest of Michigan is nothing like Detroit. So you are spewing things as fact that are just second hand opinions... yea, real valid . You are wrong, plain and simple. At least be honest enough to acknowledge that fact, not try and twist your original statement to mean something else.
Whether or not a portion of a state is heavily populated or not doesn't change the physical properties of that State. You are saying how Chicago is so different that the rest of IL because it is the population center and the rest is more rural, then try to make your argument mean the opposite for MI because Detroit IS the population center and the rest of the state is more rural. Good lord, that doesn't even make sense at any rational level.
It's true that the rest of Michigan is nothing like Detroit, but the state has a far greater issue with persistent pockets of poverty that are not found in states like Wisconsin and Minnesota. The issue of increasing rural poverty is particularly accute in many areas of northern lower Michigan.
The only people who have told me i'm wrong are three individuals on here. Compared to people I know for a fact who have grown up there, this makes no sense.
LOL, Ok stick to your false beliefs and continue to make a fool out of yourself. Have fun.
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Saying Detroit is nothing like the rest of Michigan is saying Milwaukee is nothing like the rest of Wisconsin, etc. You're telling me that Flint, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Port Huron, etc. are completely different from Detroit, absolutely no commonalities?
There is FAR more to Michigan than those cities. Grand Rapids is totally different than Detroit, Port Huron is different, Lansing is different, Ann Arbor is totally different (like another planet different), Flint is about the same as Detroit.
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That sounds more like somebody who hasn't lived there than me. It's not the time I've spent there...it's the consistent feedback I get from college friends and personal relatives.
Constant feedback? You sit around constantly talking about Michigan? That sounds like a load of horse crap to me.
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My aunt grew up in Michigan and her close family still resides there. Detroit is different from Michigan but it's also got a lot of industrial and cultural commonalities with a large chunk of the mitten. So that's why my story doesn't change.
I still live here as well. You are wrong. A large chunk of the mitten is NOT industrial. You should drop your "story" and learn some real facts. Come for a visit, and see how wrong you are.
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You can end this anytime you want to. I don't feel you are correct, you don't think I'm correct.
No, there is a difference. You don't think I am right and I KNOW you are wrong. Simple.
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THe mitten is well under half the vertical length of Illinois, so it's not unreasonable to think that Detroit would exert an influence on a considerable portion of the lower mitten, as well as be influenced by the mitten itself.
OMG are you really that dense? The mitten is "well under 1/2 the vertical length of IL" You really believe that? IL is about 385 miles N-S at it's extremes, the lower Peninsula of MI is about 285 miles N-S at it's extremes. That is NOT "well under 1/2" that would be more like "damn near 3/4 of the length." Dude you should really learn how to look at a map before making such obviously false statements.
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If you look at Michigan's metropolitan statistical areas, you will see a pretty continuous stretch of urban cities within less than 100 miles of each other between Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Saginaw.
And if you knew 1/10th about the State that you think you do, you would KNOW that it is NOT a continuous urban stretch between those cities. There is a LOT of forest and farmland between each of those cities and each of them are different from one another.
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Detroit at minimum exerts considerable influence over the southern half of the mitten.
Wrong. But trying to tell you anything is like trying to talk to a petulant child. Go ahead and believe what you want, but don't try and pass off your worthless second-hand knowledge as fact because you will get called to the mat for it.
People in Missouri would strongly disagree with you. Regardless, I'll compare St. Louis to Cincinnati, but not to Louisville, as Louisville is the south. Both St. Louis and Cincinnati are easily classifiable as Midwestern by every modern definition.
I didn't mention anything about what cities were Midwestern and what weren't. I simply said that those cities all share something in common: they straddle state lines and don't really "belong" with either side.
You make a lot of good points, but you do have a complex about areas belonging/not belonging in the Midwest or South; it's almost an obsession, really.
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Originally Posted by stlouisan
most of the people I've talked to in Illinois look at Chicago as if it doesn't belong in their state...,many Chicagoans I've talked to are the same way with the rest of Illinois.
Yeah, but there are plenty of city/state relationships like that all around the country that operate the same way. In any event, how does that justify putting it in Wisconsin? Do you think the Northwoods of Wisconsin has very much in common with Chicago?
Like someone else already pointed out, I just think you're reading way too much into things like latitude. Furthermore, there aren't any black-and-white, hard definitions of what's the "real" Illinois or Missouri or Wisconsin or whatever.
Plus, your rationale is bizarre--you argue that St. Louis doesn't "belong" in Missouri because it's on the edge of the state, yet Detroit belongs in Michigan in spite of the fact that it's even more isolated AND borders another country...and Chicago belongs in Wisconsin even though it borders Indiana.
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Originally Posted by stlouisan
Chicago is essentially an Upper Midwest city within a lower Midwest state.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by stlouisan
THe mitten is well under half the vertical length of Illinois
This is why you're getting so much negative feedback in this thread: you're posting things that are blatantly not true. The distance from Big Mac to the Indiana border is something like 300 miles.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,092,866 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colts
I didn't mention anything about what cities were Midwestern and what weren't. I simply said that those cities all share something in common: they straddle state lines and don't really "belong" with either side.
You make a lot of good points, but you do have a complex about areas belonging/not belonging in the Midwest or South; it's almost an obsession, really.
Yeah, but there are plenty of city/state relationships like that all around the country that operate the same way. In any event, how does that justify putting it in Wisconsin? Do you think the Northwoods of Wisconsin has very much in common with Chicago?
Like someone else already pointed out, I just think you're reading way too much into things like latitude. Furthermore, there aren't any black-and-white, hard definitions of what's the "real" Illinois or Missouri or Wisconsin or whatever.
Plus, your rationale is bizarre--you argue that St. Louis doesn't "belong" in Missouri because it's on the edge of the state, yet Detroit belongs in Michigan in spite of the fact that it's even more isolated AND borders another country...and Chicago belongs in Wisconsin even though it borders Indiana.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
This is why you're getting so much negative feedback in this thread: you're posting things that are blatantly not true. The distance from Big Mac to the Indiana border is something like 300 miles.
Regardless, the mitten is a good 100 miles under illinois in its vertical height. My thing about areas being the midwest and south is based on pretty much fact and is backed up by demographics and culture. I'm sorry I ever even let on my opinions...i made an estimated guess about the vertical lengths because I have a job and don't have the time I once had to do lengthy distance coverages...it's' a fact that the mitten is quite a bit shorter vertically than the rest of the area. And because Detroit borders a different country, it's suddenly Canadian? I don't follow the logic here.
Regardless, the mitten is a good 100 miles under illinois in its vertical height. My thing about areas being the midwest and south is based on pretty much fact and is backed up by demographics and culture. I'm sorry I ever even let on my opinions...i made an estimated guess about the vertical lengths because I have a job and don't have the time I once had to do lengthy distance coverages...it's' a fact that the mitten is quite a bit shorter vertically than the rest of the area.
I have a job as well, but I can easily go to Google Maps and it takes me all of five seconds to see that Michigan is twice as long as you implied it was. That's a pretty significant difference.
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And because Detroit borders a different country, it's suddenly Canadian? I don't follow the logic here.
The feeling is mutual.
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Originally Posted by stlouisan
The only people who have told me i'm wrong are three individuals on here.
The culture of Michigan and Illinois might be monolithic to you, but the rest of us disagree.
By the way, to touch on something you mentioned earlier in the thread, I would argue that St. Louis has more influence over Missouri than Kansas City does. St. Louis is Missouri's city. When people think of a city in Missouri, they think of St. Louis first (maybe that's because KC has Kansas in its name). Even St. Louis's pro sports teams have a greater share of the Missouri market compared to KC.
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. You are wrong, plain and simple. At least be honest enough to acknowledge that fact, not try and twist your original statement to mean something else. 
