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BTW -- why did so many of the northern states prohibit black residency. Were they "racist"?
Yes, very.
You seem to think you're arguing against a 4th grader who believes Lincoln rode down on a chariot from Mount Tolerance to leave candy under the Christmas trees of all good little black boys and girls. In fact you're just arguing against a couple of adults who don't feel the need to rationalize the evil of their ancestors to develop our identity. There are so, so many things you could grab on to for Texan pride. You don't need to go to the most horrible, morally empty, ignorant and destructive period of its history. There is so much else.
Here's the problem I see with this whole never-ending **** contest of a debate on CD.
Both sides (north and south) sort of shrug off cold hard evidence of their side's wrong-doing and then accuse the other side of the same thing. Why not just end the debate, admit both sides had their share of wrongdoing and racist ideas, have a coke and be done with it?
While this is a completely well-meaning post (and also cognizant of the fact that this thread is getting dangerously off-topic), I actually find the idea your putting forward to be extremely off-putting and unjust. There was no equality among wrongdoing and racist ideas. To act as if these brother states were on the same level, two sides of the same coin, would be a disgusting and corruptive example of historical revisionism.
The past should not be whitewashed, the differences between conflicting sides sandpapered down until you can't see any distinction. Forgiveness is helpful, forgetting isn't. We should not be reaching a point where we can all feel equal and move on. The Civil War is not something to feel good about it. Its lessons are not something to move on from.
Its right to be proud of your home. Its also right to curse the sad excuses for human beings that ruled your home during this time.
During what time? Want to trade racial quotes, including those of Lincoln and the actual laws prohibiting black residency in certain non-Southern states? Hell, he wanted to ship blacks back to Africa.
I appreciate the bolded point, but if your point is to "curse" the present by standards of the past? Welllll, all I can say is, it is very likely your own great-grandchildren will curse you as well.
While this is a completely well-meaning post (and also cognizant of the fact that this thread is getting dangerously off-topic), I actually find the idea your putting forward to be extremely off-putting and unjust. There was no equality among wrongdoing and racist ideas. To act as if these brother states were on the same level, two sides of the same coin, would be a disgusting and corruptive example of historical revisionism.
The past should not be whitewashed, the differences between conflicting sides sandpapered down until you can't see any distinction. Forgiveness is helpful, forgetting isn't. We should not be reaching a point where we can all feel equal and move on. The Civil War is not something to feel good about it. Its lessons are not something to move on from.
Not quite sure what you're getting at. I never said to FORGET what happened at all. I simply meant seeing things for what they were.
You seem to think you're arguing against a 4th grader who believes Lincoln rode down on a chariot from Mount Tolerance to leave candy under the Christmas trees of all good little black boys and girls. In fact you're just arguing against a couple of adults who don't feel the need to rationalize the evil of their ancestors to develop our identity. There are so, so many things you could grab on to for Texan pride. You don't need to go to the most horrible, morally empty, ignorant and destructive period of its history. There is so much else.
Actually, no. On the contrary, you seem to think you are dealing with Southerner who -- according to script -- should roll over and play dead and grovel and aplogize for our past. The blunt fact is, the winners write the history. Well, tough shlit, but I try to correct what I feel is a horrible slander to my ancestors and my state and region.
Why is it always northerners who bring this up, anyway? I can honestly say I have -- with very few exception -- seen Southerners bring up the War Between the States -- in spite of the fact we are always the ones accused of still fighting it. That is bullshlit.
Morally empty past? Well, again, lets discuss the slave trade in the North as a starting point....
During what time? Want to trade racial quotes, including those of Lincoln and the actual laws prohibiting black residency in certain non-Southern states? Hell, he wanted to ship blacks back to Africa.
Its not so much the "being racist" part of the Confederacy that bothers me, as there wasn't a single nation in the world in the 1800s that didn't operate with both de facto and de jure racist policies, to one extent or another. Its more the "launch an attack on United States of America military assets to start a pointless, unwinnable, deadly and destructive war based around preserving one of the most twisted and evil institutions ever conceived and put forth by any species in the known universe" part. Definitely mostly that part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
I appreciate the bolded point, but if your point is to "curse" the present by standards of the past? Welllll, all I can say is, it is very likely your own great-grandchildren will curse you as well.
The slave states went to war with America to preserve slavery, so clearly slavery wasn't the "standard" of the past. It was the United States in the 1800s, not the stone age. Humans are generally dumb ****s, but a basic level of unalienable human rights was not a novel concept in the 19th century. We put that idea down on paper in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. We made that a founding principle of our country. We did. As an American, I can't help but feel sad when my countrymen honor those who did everything in their power to make sure we never lived up to that goal.
Almost certainly our grandchildren will curse certain aspects of our modern era, and rightfully so. I'm incredibly proud of this country, and feel it has done far and away more good than bad. I expect my hypothetical grandchild would find plenty of things both positive and negative about this time. But I hope that on future city-data.com (presumably run by robots at this point), my grandchild doesn't choose a username that references and reveres the long-dead people behind the great sins our our day.
There's no doubt the Union was quite racist and tended to treat Blacks like second class citizens, but hell anyone who wasn't a wealthy industrialist or middle class in the North was pretty much a second a class citizen who worked in sweatshop conditions. It doesn't excuse the fact that the Confederacy was effectively controlled by a group of self righteous slave holding pricks who sought to preserve the abominable system of chattel slavery so they could hold on to their gravy train and luxury plantations, I never believed all that BS about states rights that Confederate apologist sprout out. As far as I'm concerned, the South got what was coming to them to willingly follow a group of greedy D'Bags who did their best to keep their fellow man in chains.
There's no doubt the Union was quite racist and tended to treat Blacks like second class citizens, but hell anyone who wasn't a wealthy industrialist or middle class in the North was pretty much a second a class citizen who worked in sweatshop conditions. It doesn't excuse the fact that the Confederacy was effectively controlled by a group of self righteous slave holding pricks who sought to preserve the abominable system of chattel slavery so they could hold on to their gravy train and luxury plantations, I never believed all that BS about states rights that Confederate apologist sprout out. As far as I'm concerned, the South got what was coming to them to willingly follow a group of greedy D'Bags who did their best to keep their fellow man in chains.
The very ones who sold their fellow man into slavery to begin with, right? The slave trade was firmly in the hands of northern shipping merchants.
All I ask is, WHY didn't the North just let the South go in peace? We didn't want to overthrow the northern government, we didn't want to transform it. We offered every peace offering/olive branch in the world.
Wait what? Most slaves around the time of the Civil War were born locally thanks to the Brits cracking down on the Atlantic slave trade.
And honestly so what if so called Northern merchants were supposedly running the trade? It still doesn't change the fact that it was the ruling class of the South whose income depended on slave labor that allowed the demand for slaves to rise to new heights. There's also nothing in the Constitution that allows states to secede because some states down south threw a huge fit because there was active opposition to not just spreading slavery West, but to the practice itself which threatened the pocketbooks of the movers and shakers of the Confederacy.
Wait what? Most slaves around the time of the Civil War were born locally thanks to the Brits cracking down on the Atlantic slave trade.
And honestly so what if so called Northern merchants were supposedly running the trade? It still doesn't change the fact that it was the ruling class of the South whose income depended on slave labor that allowed the demand for slaves to rise to new heights. There's also nothing in the Constitution that allows states to secede because some states down south threw a huge fit because there was active opposition to not just spreading slavery West, but to the practice itself which threatened the pocketbooks of the movers and shakers of the Confederacy.
Slavery defenders have problems with facts.
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