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Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,094,873 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_J
Responses in bold.
100% agreement. It's what I have been trying to explain to Katiana all along in addition to the study done by the University of Pennsylvania. There is a North-South Midland overlap around the central portions of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. A good chunk of the Southern halves of those three states share a speech pattern similar to Kansas City, save the far southern portions.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,094,873 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan
100% agreement. It's what I have been trying to explain to Katiana all along in addition to the study done by the University of Pennsylvania. There is a North-South Midland overlap around the central portions of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. A good chunk of the Southern halves of those three states share a speech pattern similar to Kansas City, save the far southern portions.
In addition, debating these linguistic maps because your own experience doesn't agree and should prevail is narrow-minded. Let the experts do their jobs, and you follow what they find. They know better. This study has been widely accepted...unless you've actually sampled a size this large, you're not qualified to speak on the issue.
In addition, debating these linguistic maps because your own experience doesn't agree and should prevail is narrow-minded. Let the experts do their jobs, and you follow what they find. They know better. This study has been widely accepted...unless you've actually sampled a size this large, you're not qualified to speak on the issue.
Will you PLEASE get over this so we can move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP the hijack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think central PA is "right-wing". Nor do I find WI, MN, and IA all that "liberal". All three have elected a number of conservative politicians over the years, e.g. Jesse Ventura. My family in Wisconsin is quite conservative.
Not sure If I'd call Jesse Ventura conservative. He said something like religion was for suckers once he got out of office. Clearly he wasn't socially conservative.
Regardless, in general I think the Upper Midwest is pretty distinct because there are not heavy levels of polarization by region, the way you see in IL, PA, or NY. There is some mutual hatred between Milwaukee and its suburbs outside the county, but both of them cancel each other out, and the rural parts of the state don't really have any bone to pick either way.
The suburbs ringing Milwaukee are admittedly quite conservative. But the rural areas of Southeast Wisconsin, along with the Lake Superior coastline, are quite left-leaning, and most of the rest of the rural parts of the state (north woods, Green Bay area, Fox Valley, etc), are moderately Republican on the whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
Well more republican voting = more conservative. Whether it's right-wing or not depends on your point of view. A few decades ago, the difference was less strong, but these days conservative correlates with Republican.
Agreed. All of the races that I would have been tempted to vote Republican happened in my childhood. For example, I would have voted for William Weld in the 1990 Massachusetts gubernatorial election (if I wasn't 11 at the time, and didn't live in CT), or Lowell Weicker in the 1988 Connecticut senate election. There have of course been relatively moderate Republicans since then, but I can't think of any elections in the past 20+ years where the Republican has run to the left of the Democrat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
I think the question is: was victorian era architecture in the Midwest significantly different from the Northeast? [I'd say yes, but I don't have a very confident answer] And I'm referring to more average buildings rather than local standouts.
I've spent some time walking around Cleveland, and it looked like it could be a Connecticut city (where Triple deckers are rare. Admittedly Cleveland is the "first Midwestern city," and thus probably more influenced by Upstate NY than anywhere to its west. Still, it was jarringly different from nearby Pittsburgh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
Here is a map which might help explain the minor differences. It is from the book "The Expansion of New England: The Spread of New England Settlement and Institutions to the Mississippi River, 1620–1865". The yellow areas are areas of heavy New England settlement. Notice they tend to be in the Upper North like parts of Wisconsin and Michigan because the New Englanders tended to take the northern water routes like the Erie Canal and Great Lakes. On the other hand, notice the lower Midwest is greyish, which means more of a mixed settlement. Probably more from Pennsylvania and the Upper South who often came by the way of the Ohio River.
Thanks for the map. I've said this several times, although it might have been in the originating thread. Here's another map which explores America's "political cultures." You can find the definitions here.
Note that for the most part the "moralist" stream follows Yankee settlement, the "Individualist" stream Midland settlement, and the "traditionalist" is Southern, at least until you get to the West.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino
I'm not trying to throw a wrench in your theory, here -- and this may be a digression -- but one thing I think you're neglecting to consider is that New England was much more Republican until relatively recently (last 20 years) -- which is not terribly long in terms of our nation's history.
No, it doesn't throw a wrench in. I grew up in New England, trust me, I know the history. Less changed regarding ideology than partisan affiliation in much of New England (similar to the South, where on many issues Dixiecrats weren't too different from modern Republicans). The point is the whole region realigned essentially at once, however - it behaves similar politically. Realignment has happened to a limited extent in parts of the Midwest too - places like Appalachian Ohio, Southeastern Indiana, and much of rural Missouri used to be conservative Democratic, but are no longer. Similarly, Eastern Iowa, Southeast Minnesota, and Southwest Wisconsin used to be moderate Republican areas, and by and large, they are not now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino
I also believe the white voters that you cite in NJ, NY and PA have actually moved more towards to the Democratic column in recent years, although certainly they're still more Republican-leaning that what you find in New England (on the other hand, I also think certain demographics account for that (e.g., education levels, age, etc.). Nevertheless, the transition from Republican-to-Democrat has occurred all over the Northeast.
I dunno. I know in New Jersey the only large white liberal enclaves are certain suburbs in Camden and Mercer county, in South Jersey. Whites in Northern New Jersey aren't incredibly Republican, but outside of gentrified Hoboken I can't think of too many overwhelmingly white townships and boroughs which vote Democratic by large margins - by and large towns are Democratic the more minorities they have. In Pennsylvania the only portions of the state which have been getting more Democratic are the Philadelphia suburbs and South-Central PA, which seems to be entirely associated with more minorities. Hence why Bucks County, which hasn't seen much minority growth, has been politically stuck at barely Democratic since Clinton first made inroads there in the 1990s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ancient Oracle
Which northern Midwestern cities look like New England?
Cleveland for sure. I've admittedly spent less time in the northern Midwest, but with the exception of places like Chicago where there were major fires which pushed a migration to brick, wood construction is still fairly dominant within the city for single-family housing. Attached housing (rowhouses) are fairly rare, and setbacks from the street tend to be large.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ancient Oracle
Which southern Midwestern cities look like Philadelphia?
Cincinnati and Saint Louis. Tons of brick, Victorian rowhouses, where they haven't been demolished. Setbacks are also often very limited, and in some cases, basically front right on the street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ancient Oracle
Isn't Dutch colonial architecture distinctive to the Northeast and Prairie style architecture distinctive to the Midwest?
Portions of in the case of both. Prairie Style started around Chicago, and had influence elsewhere in the region, but there are notable examples in Buffalo. Dutch Colonial is really a New York (mainly Hudson Valley) style.
I've spent some time walking around Cleveland, and it looked like it could be a Connecticut city (where Triple deckers are rare. Admittedly Cleveland is the "first Midwestern city," and thus probably more influenced by Upstate NY than anywhere to its west. Still, it was jarringly different from nearby Pittsburgh.
From images I've seen of Cleveland, it seems vaguely similar to Upstate NY, but I'd think less so Connecticut.
Quote:
Cleveland for sure. I've admittedly spent less time in the northern Midwest, but with the exception of places like Chicago where there were major fires which pushed a migration to brick, wood construction is still fairly dominant within the city for single-family housing. Attached housing (rowhouses) are fairly rare, and setbacks from the street tend to be large.
Except older New England neighborhoods tend to have small setbacks, Cleveland often has larger. See:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
for the same type of housing, Midwestern cities seem have higher setbacks from the street.
Much of the Boston area neighborhoods built in the first third of the 20th century were outside the city limits, while generally inside the city limits of midwestern cities. Here's another near Boston:
As you get closer in, the differences get larger. While both use wood, in general New England cities (including smaller ones such as Lowell, Providence and Worcester) tend to have more multi-unit buildings, and are generally closer together and a small setback from the street. And while Boston is different from the other New England cities, no Midwestern city really has neighborhoods similar to older Boston neighborhoods. So yes, some of the house styles overlap. But overall for the cities, there seems to be large differences.
Quote:
Cincinnati and Saint Louis. Tons of brick, Victorian rowhouses, where they haven't been demolished. Setbacks are also often very limited, and in some cases, basically front right on the street.
There's brick, but I haven't seen much in the way of attached housing except for maybe a few blocks here and there. For Cincinnati, it looks like outer neighborhoods resemble Cleveland ones:
Setbacks don't seem much different. Either way, I see little resemblance to Philadelphia at all.
Quote:
Portions of in the case of both. Prairie Style started around Chicago, and had influence elsewhere in the region, but there are notable examples in Buffalo. Dutch Colonial is really a New York (mainly Hudson Valley) style.
No, Dutch Colonial is as common downstate, at least its revival version. It's common for older homes in Long Island, and the outer parts of New York City where detached homes are common have plenty of Dutch Colonials.
From images I've seen of Cleveland, it seems vaguely similar to Upstate NY, but I'd think less so Connecticut.
Just for the record, I've never seen triple-decker housing in Connecticut. Duplexes sure, but triple-deckers is more an Eastern Mass/Rhode Island thing. Here's some random (non-gentrified) housing in the major Connecticut cities. Not a lot of Street View except in New Haven, so I don't have that many choices.
There's brick, but I haven't seen much in the way of attached housing except for maybe a few blocks here and there. For Cincinnati, it looks like outer neighborhoods resemble Cleveland ones:
Not sure If I'd call Jesse Ventura conservative. He said something like religion was for suckers once he got out of office. Clearly he wasn't socially conservative.
Regardless, in general I think the Upper Midwest is pretty distinct because there are not heavy levels of polarization by region, the way you see in IL, PA, or NY. There is some mutual hatred between Milwaukee and its suburbs outside the county, but both of them cancel each other out, and the rural parts of the state don't really have any bone to pick either way.
The suburbs ringing Milwaukee are admittedly quite conservative. But the rural areas of Southeast Wisconsin, along with the Lake Superior coastline, are quite left-leaning, and most of the rest of the rural parts of the state (north woods, Green Bay area, Fox Valley, etc), are moderately Republican on the whole.
Jesse Ventura was/is a nutcase. He's neither liberal or conservative. And MN has elected some other conservatives gems such as Michelle Bachmann as well. Jesse Ventura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My uncle is from northern Wisconsin as was my mom (Butternut). Uncle Max retired back there; has lived there for at least the last 35 years. One time when we went to visit him, he talked about how there is often talk of northern Wisconsin seceding from southern WI. He says, rightly so, that it would never work, that the secessionists are wrong, more money comes from Milwaukee to the rural areas than vice versa, but no matter. It makes good politics. OTOH, I never, not one time in seven years there, heard anyone talk about southern Ill. seceding from northern Ill.
The map is hilarious. Colorado is "moralistic"?
Colorado, the first state to give women the right to vote, in 1893, 27 years before "individualistic" PA?
Colorado, the first state to legalize abortion, in 1967, six years before Roe v Wade?
Colorado, with one of the lowest rates of religious adherents in the country?
Colorado, the first state, along with Washington, to legalize marijuana?
Colorado, the birthplace of the Libertarian Party?
G. M. A. B!!!!!
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-18-2013 at 06:54 PM..
Don't be ridiculous. You posted about the KC accent last night; when I didn't respond you quoted yourself and posted again this morning. You also threatened to "hammer" me with linguistic maps and called me a liar, on a post since deleted.
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