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I feel Milwaukee, Chicago, and Southern Michigan, much like northern Ohio and Western New York, have been shaped by African-American, Irish, and Eastern European (particularly Polish) culture to a greater extent than anywhere in Minnesota, Iowa, the Dakotas, the UP, and most of Wisconsin. I'm not saying Minnesota doesn't have African Americans and Eastern Europeans (my old neighborhood in Northeast Minneapolis had plenty of both), but it seems that the Scandinavian and Germanic influence dominates.
I don't know about western NY, that's a different kinda place all together but you are right about Irish, Poles and black culture in Chicago, Milwaukee and Detroit. Those cities are different than the rest of the region. However if you take Michigan for example it is only like that in the far southeast of the state in Detroit and areas surrounding it. The rest of lower Michigan is German and Dutch. In fact one of the most German areas around is about 100 miles north of that city, its so German that it has become a tourist attraction. Anywhere in Michigan north of Flint is mostly German, or Dutch on the west side. Upper Michigan is a mixture of German and Finnish. For that reason I would say that most of Michigan is part of the upper Midwest, but I guess you can remove Detroit for the reasons you cited. Wisconsin is the same story, that state is just as German as Michigan and all of it is upper Midwestern. Chicago has the weakest claim, but still I think it is more linked to the states to its north than it is to the south.
This dialect map here is a useful one. The key take-away for me is that everything outside of the "North Central" or "Western North" sections on this map is absolutely not the Upper Midwest. This map corroborates the counter-intuitive claim that Omaha and Des Moines are closer to being Upper Midwest than Chicago or Grand Rapids or Detroit. Personally, I put Omaha and Des Moines (as well as Cedar Rapids) outside the Upper Midwest, but I can follow the logic if you're arguing they should be included.
I really like steel03's map and I think a lot of fun discussion could be had about the differences between it and the dialect map. What do people think about the line between the "North Central" and "Western North" sections on the dialect map? Is it significant? I've spent a good bit of time in the "Western North" region, but only a couple hours in the "North Central" (Cambridge, Minn.).
Not being from the Midwest, I tend to look at the term "Upper Midwest" from mostly a geographic and naturalistic standpoint. To me the heart of the Upper Midwest would be the three most northerly states, Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin, that border Canada and also have a great deal of forest land versus other parts of the Midwest which are largely farmland.
I suppose you can add North Dakota (borders Canada) and South Dakota (pretty far north) as they directly connect with Minnesota. Not sure what to think about northern Iowa. Iowa really is the center of the Midwest, she directly borders 6 other states - all Midwestern.
I would add South Dakota east of the Missouri, at least culturally. Yes it is on the plains, but culturally its ties are to Minnesota. Same with ND. get west of the Missouri and people in the Dakotas are more tied to the west. Even in Rapid City there is more of an affinity for Denver than the Cities.
As for Iowa, Iowa to me is the center of the midwest and kind of has characteristics of all of the states it borders. I'd say northwest Iowa is a lot like South Dakota and SW Minnesota (Conservative, lots of Scandinavians, Germans and Dutch, more Protestant, though there are pockets of catholics). Southwest Iowa is a lot like Nebraska and Northeast KS and Missouri. There are Germans, but its not really dominated by a certain ethnic group. It's also more centered around Omaha and Kansas City. As for Eastern Iowa, I've always felt it was more like Illinois or Wisconsin. It's more liberal, some of the areas are very Rust belt like (the Quad Cities come to mind, as does Dubuque). It's also more Catholic, though there are pockets of other ethnicities and religions.
Overall I feel northern Iowa could count, but only culturally.
I would add South Dakota east of the Missouri, at least culturally. Yes it is on the plains, but culturally its ties are to Minnesota. Same with ND. get west of the Missouri and people in the Dakotas are more tied to the west. Even in Rapid City there is more of an affinity for Denver than the Cities.
As for Iowa, Iowa to me is the center of the midwest and kind of has characteristics of all of the states it borders. I'd say northwest Iowa is a lot like South Dakota and SW Minnesota (Conservative, lots of Scandinavians, Germans and Dutch, more Protestant, though there are pockets of catholics). Southwest Iowa is a lot like Nebraska and Northeast KS and Missouri. There are Germans, but its not really dominated by a certain ethnic group. It's also more centered around Omaha and Kansas City. As for Eastern Iowa, I've always felt it was more like Illinois or Wisconsin. It's more liberal, some of the areas are very Rust belt like (the Quad Cities come to mind, as does Dubuque). It's also more Catholic, though there are pockets of other ethnicities and religions.
Overall I feel northern Iowa could count, but only culturally.
I would agree about the Dakotas... eastern Dakotas look east and the western Dakotas look toward Denver. From about Minot to midway between Bismarck and Jamestown then down through SD in between Aberdeen-Huron and the Missouri River and points east are much more Minnesota oriented and the Cities in terms of athletic teams and culturally as well due to a larger scandinavian influence than west of there. Also along and east of that line (roughly) more row crops dominate vs western Dakotas where you get into more rangeland/cattle...which you dont have that much in the eastern Dakotas (I mean you can have dairy farms...but not the wide open range land of the west).
As you do head east....it is different a bit once you hit the trees....generally east of a Rochester-MSP-Alexandria-Thief River Falls-Roseau line. Once you get into Bemidji and points east way less agriculture and overall a bit different feel from the eastern Dakotas and western MN prairies (Red River valley)
I also must add that northern ND/northern MN also look north to Canada as well. Being that Grand Forks is closer to Winnipeg than to the Cities, and pretty strong cultural ties due to the Red River valley and its settlers, there is a strong Grand Forks-Manitoba connection. We got a lot of shoppers headed south to our stores, which helps our economy. On a weekend at our SuperTarget...could easily be 60 pct Manitoba plates, plus the buses that come down.
As for Iowa, Iowa to me is the center of the midwest and kind of has characteristics of all of the states it borders. I'd say northwest Iowa is a lot like South Dakota and SW Minnesota (Conservative, lots of Scandinavians, Germans and Dutch, more Protestant, though there are pockets of catholics). Southwest Iowa is a lot like Nebraska and Northeast KS and Missouri. There are Germans, but its not really dominated by a certain ethnic group. It's also more centered around Omaha and Kansas City. As for Eastern Iowa, I've always felt it was more like Illinois or Wisconsin. It's more liberal, some of the areas are very Rust belt like (the Quad Cities come to mind, as does Dubuque). It's also more Catholic, though there are pockets of other ethnicities and religions.
And then there's Des Moines smack dab at the intersection of all of it being impossible to categorize. It's not northern Iowa or western Iowa or southern Iowa or eastern Iowa, but it does have elements of all four - progressive and working class like the east, liberal and polite like the north, hilly like the south, and spread out and growing like the west. Geographically, it's in the southwest quadrant, but culturally it's much more like the north and east than the south and west.
One note, southeast Iowa is more Catholic and Eastern European, but northeast Iowa is very Lutheran and Scandinavian.
I don't know how far the Upper Midwest extends out from this but, it's been well documented that the Center of the Upper Midwest is in South Central, WI in Midwestern Dane County in the city of Middleton at the intersection of West Mineral Point Rd and South Point Rd.
I don't know how far the Upper Midwest extends out from this but, it's been well documented that the Center of the Upper Midwest is in South Central, WI in Midwestern Dane County in the city of Middleton at the intersection of West Mineral Point Rd and South Point Rd.
I was hoping that location would've at least been Capital Brewery
I don't know how far the Upper Midwest extends out from this but, it's been well documented that the Center of the Upper Midwest is in South Central, WI in Midwestern Dane County in the city of Middleton at the intersection of West Mineral Point Rd and South Point Rd.
I see what you're doing here...
I still think that the Vikings should contact Gary Cuozzo to solve their QB woes...
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