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By the way, did I mention that Maryland is known for crab cakes? Well, in case you didn't know, I'm saying it now: Maryland is identified with crab cakes.
For me, it is kind of arbitrary about Maryland. I can see arguments for and against Maryland being considered a Northern state. For me the deciding factor is that, apologizes to people like $mk and Wolftown (?), but I get the impression that the majority of Marylanders do not consider themselves Southerners anymore. In a way, you can say that is demographic I guess.
But the corollary of that is not that they necessarily see themselves as "northeastern." It's not a binary, Black/White distinction. That's why you can see a poll in the Baltimore forum where a majority of respondents say it's not a northeastern city. In the only remotely scientific poll that has been conducted on regional identification, 40% of Marylanders said they lived in the South (again, that doesn't mean the other 60% thought it was the "northeast" since many people consider it neither southern nor northern but "Mid Atlantic"). Even in the Delaware forum, muppethammer has been kind of enough to start a poll on the regional identity of the state, and it's virtually split down the middle (notwithstanding the fact muppethammer voted "Yes" in the poll...why create a poll and then vote?).
I don't see anything conclusively pointing to Maryland being the Northeast. If it was so obvious, there would not be so many threads on it, the Post and the Sun would stop writing articles on it, WETA would stop making programs on it, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
Regarding Southern history, I think it is by degrees. Virginia for instance, has a overwhelmingly Southern history, especially because of the Civil War. It is the original Southern colony in fact, where the South began. As a history nut its almost blasphemy to consider Virginia anything but Southern.
But BCD's point is that history has nothing to do with modern day cultural lines, which is really what we should concern ourselves with. I mean, half of the DC metro is in Virginia (Arlington was the home of Robert E. Lee), yet that doesn't stop some people from claiming that the Northeast runs from Maine to NOVA. Every time you want to go to Target in Alexandria, you need to get on the Jefferson Davis Highway, and yet many people believe that's a minor historical artifact that doesn't preclude grouping NOVA with the likes of Long Island or Nantucket.
To say that the Northeast can't extend into former Confederate territory seems illogical and arbitrary. If the cultural Northeast can move all the way down to NOVA, former Confederate territory, then it could theoretically extend down I-95 to Richmond provided the proper demographic realignment. It's silly to draw a line at Fredericksburg and say, "No, no more Northeast beyond this point!" simply because it doesn't sit well with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
Maryland? Southern but not to the same extent. Border state during the Civil War. Even as far back as the 1820s, Baltimore and Maryland began to push for the building of the Baltimore and Ohio RR. This was to compete with New York's Erie Canal (and later Eire RR) and Pennsylvania's canal and railroad. This shows that Maryland was already looking northward toward the Ohio river and the Midwest at a very early date.
"Border" state means it was a slave state that didn't secede. That doesn't mean the state wasn't southern-leaning, particularly if we don't completely bury our heads in the sand and consider the Election of 1860. Even after the Civil War, George Proctor Kane was elected mayor of Baltimore, who had previously been arrested by Union troops for his well-known Confederate sympathies. And it's not like Maryland stopped being southern then. It was a founding member of the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association (which made sense since Jim Crow was the one thing they all had in common). So its southern history is well-documented.
So basically, we're in a position where we have to create some arbitrary formula about how much southern history is too much or just enough, how much demographics must change to override said history, etc. No matter where you draw the line, it comes off as "This is what it is because I say so." If we're going to be true to history, then we should do that, and not try to determine what parts of history count and how much they should count.
Even in the Delaware forum, muppethammer has been kind of enough to start a poll on the regional identity of the state, and it's virtually split down the middle (notwithstanding the fact muppethammer voted "Yes" in the poll...why create a poll and then vote?).
But BCD's point is that history has nothing to do with modern day cultural lines, which is really what we should concern ourselves with. I mean, half of the DC metro is in Virginia (Arlington was the home of Robert E. Lee), yet that doesn't stop some people from claiming that the Northeast runs from Maine to NOVA. Every time you want to go to Target in Alexandria, you need to get on the Jefferson Davis Highway, and yet many people believe that's a minor historical artifact that doesn't preclude grouping NOVA with the likes of Long Island or Nantucket.
Like I said before, Northern Virginia is simply the Washington DC metro area. Northern Virginians identify with Washington DC, not Richmond or anywhere outside of this area. That is the key factor. Almost the entire wealth economy of Northern Virginia is associated with the nation's capital and has very little to do with "Virginia." People who don't live in this area need to understand this (if it interests them that is).
Even though it is located in Virginia, it has little connection socially, politically, culturally or economically to the rest of the state. It is similar to the relationship between New York City and upstate New York.
They do have a "secret" recipe. The "supposed" Maryland way is to dip the chicken in buttermilk first, there is also some versions where a creamy gravy is used afterwards...but so many people taking and mixing and matching styles due to all the food channels, it is hard to lay claim to being "the first" at dipping chicken in buttermilk then flouring. One of my grandmas is from Maryland...she does it RIGHT!!!
Yes, that is correct. It is really more of an Eastern shore specialty. You used to be able to find it at the DC Wharf, which is one of the few organic things left in DC, but planners are more than happy to supplant the organic with the artificial when chasing after $$$.
Baltimore is best known for crab cakes, but the chicken box is probably more prevalent (or at least as prevalent) than the crab cake (typically enjoyed with a "half and half").
Like I said before, Northern Virginia is simply the Washington DC metro area. Northern Virginians identify with Washington DC, not Richmond or anywhere outside of this area. That is the key factor. Almost the entire wealth economy of Northern Virginia is associated with the nation's capital and has very little to do with "Virginia." People who don't live in this area need to understand this (if it interests them that is).
Even though it is located in Virginia, it has little connection socially, politically, culturally or economically to the rest of the state. It is similar to the relationship between New York City and upstate New York.
That's not the point. The point is that NOVA was clearly southern (am I the only person who's ever seen Remember the Titans about the T.C. Williams football team, starring Denzel Washington???). If NOVA can transform into the Northeast, then Richmond in theory can too.
Besides, people in Richmond believe they are more culturally and economically connected to their neighbors to the North (DC, Baltimore) than they are their neighbors to the South. And there is some truth to that. You do have some commuting from the Richmond area to NOVA and DC, which will only increase over time with population growth and transit improvements. Amtrak has already increased Northeast Regional service in that part of the state.
Yes, that is correct. It is really more of an Eastern shore specialty. You used to be able to find it at the DC Wharf, which is one of the few organic things left in DC, but planners are more than happy to supplant the organic with the artificial when chasing after $$$.
Baltimore is best known for crab cakes, but the chicken box is probably more prevalent (or at least as prevalent) than the crab cake (typically enjoyed with a "half and half").
Like I said before, Northern Virginia is simply the Washington DC metro area. Northern Virginians identify with Washington DC, not Richmond or anywhere outside of this area. That is the key factor. Almost the entire wealth economy of Northern Virginia is associated with the nation's capital and has very little to do with "Virginia." People who don't live in this area need to understand this (if it interests them that is).
Even though it is located in Virginia, it has little connection socially, politically, culturally or economically to the rest of the state. It is similar to the relationship between New York City and upstate New York.
You obviously are NOT from Virginia because that is hogwash.
I couldn't agree more. Especially the part about arguments being able to be flipped over. I agree about the history of the black populatino in Maryland.
But why does Maryland match the northeast instead of the southeast in terms of religion?
Why does Maryland align with the Northeast politically? Why is it one of the most democratic blue states in the entire country (like most of the northeast), instead of incredibly red (like the south)?
Last Few Elections
Why is the ancestry of the BULK of Marylanders (note I said Bulk, not tiny minority populations like Puerto Ricans) shared with Pennsylvania and upstate NY instead of Virginia and NC?
Why isn't Maryland considered southern by Southerners? "Also, Maryland — well and truly — is not a Southern state, according to actual Southerners. It pulled a pathetic 6 percent of the vote. That’s worse than Arizona and New Mexico".
Why is that in Dr. Shelton Reed's UNC Focus Study (A study that BajanYankee has cited many times earlier), a minority of Marylanders identified as southern, while 80+ percent from southern states claim they are?
"Strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don’t belong anymore, if they ever did".
"Notice the somewhat fortuitous "break point" between the non-Southern state with the most minority support (45%) [West Virginia] for southern status and the Southern state with the lowest majority support (69%) for southern status."
So IMHO the wikipedia map of the northeast does the most justice. Is MD or DE the northeast like Massachussetts or New Hampshire? No. But most people consider it the northeast, for better or worse. There is far too much it has in common with the northeast, and far too little in common with states like NC. If we want to stick to abstract historical arguments, or use the census bureau as a bible on the matter, than we can say that these states are southern or not part of the northeast. But if we are talking about an intelligent assessment of these state's culture, politics, and economy, then yes, they are without a doubt the southernmost part of the northeast. BajanYankee makes good arguments about the black population having more southern influence (I was in Philly last weekend and personally I dont see a difference in black accents until NYC/North Jersey), but when we look at these entire states overall they are quite northeastern. MD/DE are the southernmost parts of the north, and Virginia is the northernmost part of the south.
You have done an excellent job highlighting what seems to be every conceivable difference between MD (and DE) and the rest of the northeast, but it still just doesn't stack up. You make some good historical points, and points about Latinos and other minority groups. These populations may be defining features of NYC or other major metros, but the bulk of the population is white or even black Americans and not particularly affected by immigrant groups who tend to form their own enclaves. When we look at the big picture - whole population - MD and DE are definitely northeastern. Northeastern like Worcester, MA? No, but closer to Pennsylvania and South Jersey than Virginia and NC. I mean, it's not even really close.
North Jersey - the NYC metro area? Sure. I am more skeptical about South Jersey compared to MD. Even more so, what about Pennsylvania? Pennsylvania is very different from the rest of the Northeast, but it is certainly northeastern. The reality is that most of MD has more in common with these places than Virginia outside of NOVA. Many of the differences you highlight in the northeast leave large parts of it as outliers - Maine, Pennsylvania, Vermont, upstate NY. You have decent arguments for NYC and Boston but these areas are not the whole northeast. South Jersey and PA are the northeast, and so are Rochester and Burlington.
Sure. But is York, PA very Italian or Irish? No. Less though than many places in Maryland I would wager. But that doesn't make it the south. What about Vermont and Maine? They have French Canadian minorities but New Jersey doesn't - does this exclude New Jersey from being the "true" northeast? I would say no. These minority groups are unique and help define different areas within the northeast, but it isn't as if they are universally present in any significance in northeastern towns and it isn't as if they are evenly distributed. For example, there just aren't that many Puerto Ricans in New Hampshire, but this doesn't make New Hampshire less northeastern than Philadelphia.
Good individual points, but as a whole they don't stack up. Like cpterp says, we can flip this around. According to Wiki the Buffalo metro areas is 3% Hispanic - but where I am now is much more Hispanic than that. Virginia has a huge hispanic population for the east coast, but that doesn't change all of the other more important factors that put it in the south. Either way, the percentage of hispanics is a fact worth presenting, but it isn't anything close to a debate changing statistic. I feel like you are throwing lots and lots of pebbles (the only rock would be the historical facts pre-1860 and the black population) while I am presenting you with with game-changing evidence. The game changing evidence is that Maryland lines up beautifully with the northeast when it comes to these factors:
a) religion
b) linguistics
c) politics
d) ancestry (half a point here)
e) economics
These criteria are absolutely crucial because they are the defining factors for a region's culture. Is Maryland/DE going to be a carbon copy of New Jersey? Of course not! But in all of these categories these places fall easily within the northeast, rather than the southeast. There is simply no way anyone could argue that Maryland has more in common with the southeast than the northeast when it comes to these critical factors.
The weakest link would be ancestry - as you have pointed out many times - where Maryland has a large native black population which is a trait more similar to VA. Also a difference would be the fact that there has been heavier migration of certain groups major cities like NYC that hasn't occurred in a significant way in Baltimore.
But do these facts outweigh religion, linguistics, politics, economics, and the ancestry of MOST people (German like PA)? No, they don't. In fact, we can flip the ancestry arguments you put forward on their head and argue that much of the northeast simply doesn't see much in the way of Latinos or Italians, and other groups outside of major metros areas. I know that where I am resembles a Connecticut suburb, but it is true I can't say Baltimore resembles NYC demographically.
/thread
This where the thread ended. Decisive evidence but no one has been able to rebuke even a couple of these points. The maps show why the northeast is from Maryland up to Maine.
Everyone knows this. If I type "northeastern US" or "northeast region" in google msot of the maps include DE and MD. As many maps dont include PA/NJ or NY as those that dont have DE/MD. I even learned that this was the northeast when in an ivy league college when I moved to the US to be a student. If we asked 100 Americans from across the country if these places are northeast or southeast they would vote 90-10 that they are northeast. It is so painfully obvious that once I get out of Northern Virginia I am in the south. Go to Maryland towns like Westminster and they are incredibly northern like Pennsylvania. The huge Confederate flag and the "WELCOME TO THE SOUTH" sign I saw the first time I went to Virginia from Delmarva was a pretty big hint. Or maybe its the giant Confederate flag being flown above the main highway near Richmond. Seriously people who think MD and DE are not the northeast need to try being more objective - yeah it's southern compared to Boston but is part of the lower northeast. Go to Asheville, NC and let's see how "southern" Wilmington 40 miles outside of Philadelphia is.
Case closed!
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Frank Purdue was king. LOL.
