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Old 08-19-2014, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,246 posts, read 10,489,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
I am not speaking of the 'middle colonies' but of the US after independence. In addition to the books I mentioned, the topic is regularly brought up in the Pennsylvania Journal of Middle Atlantic Studies, a peer reviewed scholarly journal available on JSTOR. It was not uncommon to hear Philadelphia referred to as the 'northernmost southern city' as late as the Civil War. Her reputation as a border area rapidly faded during the era of the Missouri Compromise and Maryland and Delaware became widely considered the new border area. The eighth chapter of the book Philadelphia: A 300 Year History titled 'The Border City in the Civil War' briefly discusses this shift, as does Donehoo and Patterson's Pennsylvania: A History:

"The transition had taken scarcely three decades. Their hearts and minds no longer straddled the cultural boundaries of North and South. The gaze of Philadelphians turned North, and North it would remain".

Donehoo, George Patterson. Pennsylvania, a History. New York: Lewis Historical Pub., 1926. 243.
Interesting, but, once again, the topic of Civil War loyalties and their divisions were not unique to Pennsylvania/Philadelphia. New York, similarly, experienced divisions regarding sympathies in the War:

Gotham at War: New York City, 1860-1865 (American Crisis Series) / Edition 1 by Edward K. Spann | 9780842050579 | Other Format | Barnes & Noble

In general, Civil War was a very confusing time for the country, and support for abolishing slavery was certainly not unanimous in the North, primarily due to Southern economic interests.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:26 PM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
46,011 posts, read 53,160,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
I always called Maryland and Delaware northern states. I was just telling this to southern expansionists.
Maryland and Delaware are southern states to the US census bureau. Always were, still are.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Seymour, CT
3,639 posts, read 3,313,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
I always called Maryland and Delaware northern states. I was just telling this to southern expansionists.
They already are "southern" states. No expansion needed.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:30 PM
 
622 posts, read 941,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
They already are "southern" states. No expansion needed.
If Maryland and Delaware are fully southern states, then New Jersey, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois would be partly southern since some portions of those 4 states fall below the Mason-Dixon Line.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Seymour, CT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
If Maryland and Delaware are fully southern states, then New Jersey, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois would be partly southern since some portions of those 4 states fall below the Mason-Dixon Line.
That's not how the Mason-Dixon line works. Read up on your history.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:44 PM
 
622 posts, read 941,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
That's not how the Mason-Dixon line works. Read up on your history.
Actually the Mason-Dixon Line separates Maryland from Pennsylvania and Delaware so that would make Maryland a southern state, but Delaware a northern state.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:44 PM
 
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And Southern Ontario is in the United States because it's south of the 49th parallel.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Seymour, CT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
Actually the Mason-Dixon Line separates Maryland from Pennsylvania and Delaware so that would make Maryland a southern state, but Delaware a northern state.
Gosh! We're getting somewhere!

Okay that's one down! The Civil War (Union / Confederacy) sums up the remainder of your questions. Come on now! You can do it! :-)
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:56 PM
 
Location: The City
22,379 posts, read 38,686,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
Actually the Mason-Dixon Line separates Maryland from Pennsylvania and Delaware so that would make Maryland a southern state, but Delaware a northern state.
Yes the Mason Dixon line makes a 90 degree angle, I believe was set such that the port of Philadelphia had ocena access above the line

I actually used to live one block from the offices for the surveyors of Mason and Dixon in the Queen Village section of Philadelphia. The mapping of the Mason Dixon line started with a point on the intersection of South Street and Front streets in Philadelphia


Actually MD made claims for Philadelphia at one point

History is actually pretty interesting


The Pennsylvania Center for the Book - The Mason-Dixon Line
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,847,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Interesting, but, once again, the topic of Civil War loyalties and their divisions were not unique to Pennsylvania/Philadelphia. New York, similarly, experienced divisions regarding sympathies in the War:

Gotham at War: New York City, 1860-1865 (American Crisis Series) / Edition 1 by Edward K. Spann | 9780842050579 | Other Format | Barnes & Noble

In general, Civil War was a very confusing time for the country, and support for abolishing slavery was certainly not unanimous in the North, primarily due to Southern economic interests.
Perhaps, but I am unsure why you are stating this. It doesnt respond to my last post (which you have quoted). I wouldn't argue that Pennsylvania was a border area due to unrest during the Civil War. It was widely considered a border area well before the conflict, more specifically during the period between independence and the Missouri Compromise.

I mention the books by Klein and Randall because I used them when I was doing my graduate studies and in them there was ample discussion of Pennsylvania (and New Jersey's) unique past identities. I actually have Donehoo and Patterson's book physically on hand. Here are some more quotes from it. They are describing Pennsylvania first two decades of the 19th century.


"Exhibiting traits of both regional characters, the Pennsylvanian acquainted himself with a moderate disposition. He was free of the fiery tendancies of the proud southern planter, but equally lacked the cool collectiveness of the calculating Yankee. Pennsylvanians were a middling people of moderate character; neither northern nor southern, but an agreeable combination of the two."


Donehoo, George Patterson. Pennsylvania, a History. New York: Lewis Historical Pub., 1926. 33.

"As such, he [Smith] suggested that the representatives no longer consider Pennsylvania a border state, but a northern state."

Donehoo, George Patterson. Pennsylvania, a History. New York: Lewis Historical Pub., 1926. 110.
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