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Just from reading this discussion it occured to me that perhaps athiests are just people who haven't yet had any experiences to prove to them there are powers higher than themselves. To me it seems like self-righteousness to a degree,with little or no humility.
Or it may simply be that without a shred of actual evidence, it is the most rational state. No one can prove god exists. No one can prove god does not exist. All the so-called "proofs" are either simply opinion or can be explained by non-magical events. It seems to me a great hubris to accuse someone else of self-righteousness for not believing as you do. Just because you don't understand someone else's rational or experience does not invalidate it.
In my experience, there are just as many good-hearted, ethical atheists as there are religious people. There are plenty of really horrible religious people as there are some horrible atheists. But to really be horrible takes using god to threaten people. Just look at history. Ever heard of the inquisition? How about the current spate of terrorists - all religiously motivated and justified.
Or it may simply be that without a shred of actual evidence, it is the most rational state. No one can prove god exists. No one can prove god does not exist. All the so-called "proofs" are either simply opinion or can be explained by non-magical events. It seems to me a great hubris to accuse someone else of self-righteousness for not believing as you do. Just because you don't understand someone else's rational or experience does not invalidate it.
In my experience, there are just as many good-hearted, ethical atheists as there are religious people. There are plenty of really horrible religious people as there are some horrible atheists. But to really be horrible takes using god to threaten people. Just look at history. Ever heard of the inquisition? How about the current spate of terrorists - all religiously motivated and justified.
No proof? It's all around should anyone care to take a look.
As far as self-righteousness,well if they don't believe me or God then who's the only one they believe? Themselves.
So tell me the rationality or experiences that are so valid that I should concede to if it's so profound...
And using God to threaten people,it's just an extension of the word that God has already set forth. People don't have to listen to those messengers but when the sh hits the fan don't say they weren't trying to get the word out.
As for terrorists,it's obvious they are more like extremists.
Assumptions about what others believe? You are the one to talk.
"Ah yes, another religious person who redefines a term with quite a simple meaning to suit his or her own prejudices"
It is easy for people to have it both ways I guess, When it comes to atheism because it fits their lifestyle and make it whatever they want. Talk about hypocrisy.
But oh well, that is life.
Tell me, do you believe in a deity of any sort?
You certainly seem to have a lot of assumptions about what atheism is and isn't...and most of them are way out in left field.
Yes, atheists can celebrate holidays without believing in a god. Most holidays have very little to do with a deity, even though some people think they do. For instance, there is Christmas. Atheists can certainly celebrate a holiday of togetherness, family, and gift-giving without having any of the related religious parts mean anything to them. Halloween? Same thing...that's the best freakin' party holiday EVER. I loves me some Halloween. Easter? It's all about the chocolate, baby. Thanksgiving? I can be grateful for what I have without attributing it to any god -- everything I have is a result of my own hard work, or the hard work of my family. And who doesn't like T-day dinner?
So it's a little disingenuous of you to say that a "true" atheist cannot celebrate holidays. We can, we do, and you know what -- we still don't believe in any god.
As far as your statement that atheism is a religion -- no, it's not. Nearly every dictionary will define religion as some sort of belief in a divine entity or entities. The definition of all other terms linked to religion employ much the same language -- church, monastery, priest, etc etc. They are all part of a religious language game that has little to do with atheism.
Now, a few religions (such as Ch'an Buddhism) are also atheistic, so religion and atheism can intersect, but you certainly cannot say that atheism itself is a religion.
No proof? It's all around should anyone care to take a look.
As far as self-righteousness,well if they don't believe me or God then who's the only one they believe? Themselves.
So tell me the rationality or experiences that are so valid that I should concede to if it's so profound...
And using God to threaten people,it's just an extension of the word that God has already set forth. People don't have to listen to those messengers but when the sh hits the fan don't say they weren't trying to get the word out.
As for terrorists,it's obvious they are more like extremists.
You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to mine. Or any one else's. Atheists are entitled to their own opinion too. There is no proof that you've offered - just your opinion. You are welcome to interpret the world through that veil. I would not try to change it. Just extend the same courtesy to others.
Yes, terrorists are extremists. In the name of their god. We have had our own Christian terrorists here - remember Timothy McVeigh?
No proof? It's all around should anyone care to take a look.
As far as self-righteousness,well if they don't believe me or God then who's the only one they believe? Themselves.
So tell me the rationality or experiences that are so valid that I should concede to if it's so profound...
And using God to threaten people,it's just an extension of the word that God has already set forth. People don't have to listen to those messengers but when the sh hits the fan don't say they weren't trying to get the word out.
As for terrorists,it's obvious they are more like extremists.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~ Stephen F. Roberts
As far as your statement that atheism is a religion -- no, it's not. Nearly every dictionary will define religion as some sort of belief in a divine entity or entities. The definition of all other terms linked to religion employ much the same language -- church, monastery, priest, etc etc. They are all part of a religious language game that has little to do with atheism.
I do not support nor deny the existence of a higher being Religion (defenition) - a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
Atheism is a religion. You cannot be "something abstract" . Is that what not Atheism really is? a belief of not believing in God? Which is agreed by a large number of people in the world? So that does make it a religion.
Atheism -- You choose to believe that God does not exist. That means you are following a belief or in other words.. religion. Religion does not classify only to following a deity or a God. It is believing in something -- a practice.
Last edited by Beliy Plashik; 12-27-2007 at 09:42 PM..
You may not, but he most certainly did consider himself Christian. And according to the definition of Christian, he was.
I can consider myself a martian but that doesn't make me one. Tim Mcveigh is a bad example of a "christian terrorist".
an interview with TIME magazine: "MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."
"I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now"
Believe what you want to believe but he doesn't seem to fit the bill. I'm not saying there's never been christian terrorism-that would be a lie. But don't get caught up trying to say Christianity is on the same level with Islam as far as producing terrorists. Terrorists come from the fringes of both religions, there just must be more Moslems on the fringe.
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