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Some of Texas is culturally southern and some of it is culturally southwestern, since we are talking about culture and not geography.
Some guy had a nerve to tell me Hawaii was the southernmost state and it's not even in North America. I'm like really yo? Tell me something I don't know, since I was not even including the u.s. island state way way out in the Pacific. That's just a technicality, but the Hawaiians have nothing much to do with the geography of the continental u.s.
Puerto rico is farther south than Hawaii and it's an American territory, but that has nothing to do with the geography of the continental u.s. either.
I wasn't talking about "Southern" in a civil war era context. I'm talking about the South of 2014. I highly doubt most modern day Southerners hold the same ideals that the Confederacy did back in the 1860's. So, to answer your question... no. I seriously doubt that German Texans revoke their Southern status just because their ancestors didn't support the confederacy 150 years ago.
Why is everyone still so hung up on the civil war on this site?
Ok, I quoted you.
It would appear that your view on this is that every ethnic group who migrated to Texas a long time ago has now assimilated and is officially "southern" in 2014.
As far as the civil war issue? A lot of people who make the case for Texas' southernness use the confederacy to make that case. And rightfully so, as the confederacy left an imprint on all of Texas including central and frontier Texas (west Texas is the real issue here because nobody in their right mind would say that east Texas isn't southern).
Discussions on this subject are difficult because nobody can come up with an official criteria for what is "southern".
Yes, you quoted me directly this time, and you spoke intelligently and eloquently, rather than making some snarky, sideways jab... so thanks for that at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein
It would appear that your view on this is that every ethnic group who migrated to Texas a long time ago has now assimilated and is officially "southern" in 2014.
Yes, you would be partially correct in nailing my view there. "Partially", in that I don't speak for all 26 million inhabitants of the state of Texas, but I do know plenty of German-Texans, which is the demographic in reference here, and almost all of the ones I know would identify first as Texans, and next as Southern. Especially since Texas is a Southern state and their families go back several generations there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein
As far as the civil war issue? A lot of people who make the case for Texas' southernness use the confederacy to make that case. And rightfully so, as the confederacy left an imprint on all of Texas including central and frontier Texas (west Texas is the real issue here because nobody in their right mind would say that east Texas isn't southern).
Once again, German-Texans being the specific part of the equation in this discussion, that would be mostly limited to Central Texas, since that is where the majority of the "48-ers" settled and continue to live. Of course the confederacy left an imprint on Texas, but come on. That was 150 years ago. Much has changed since the 1860's, and quite dramatically at that. Modern day Texas is a whole different social climate than civil war era Texas was, and that is the context in which I'm speaking. Just because one lives in the South doesn't mean that they are still at war. Most Southerners are proud Americans.
Now, when I think of "West" Texas, I'm thinking of the Trans-Pecos, which aside from El Paso, is a very sparsely populated part of the state. Perhaps the locals in towns like Van Horn, Alpine, Marfa, and Sierra Blanca consider themselves Southwesterners and not Southern, but during the time I spent in those places, they struck me as pretty damn Southern in their mannerisms, accents, and overall culture. However, it's up to those people to determine which region they feel they belong in, and if they say "Southwest", then so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein
Discussions on this subject are difficult because nobody can come up with an official criteria for what is "southern".
Yep. Now there's something we can definitely agree on.
One last thing that a few people here seem to really be missing the point on, is that in the year 2014, being "Southern" and being "Confederate" are two completely different things.
It's sad that this has to be explained, but apparently it does.
This is a photo of my Great Grandparents in 1915. They came to this country before 1890. They settled in East Texas and they were Catholic. They had 15 children. All of which were Southern and Catholic. No tellin how many Southern Catholics came from those 15. You can bet that they were not the only Catholics to figure into Texas or Southern history.
CATHOLIC CHURCH. The Catholic Church has been a part of Texas history ever since Europeans first set foot on the land in 1528. In fact for the three centuries up to 1821-that is, during the Spanish Texas period-Hispanic Catholicism had a rarely challenged religious and civil monopoly among the European-origin settlers in what is now Texas. This in turn gave Hispanic Catholics complete control over Christianization efforts among the Indians.
Read entire article at above link.
Last edited by slingshot; 10-31-2014 at 02:25 PM..
One last thing that a few people here seem to really be missing the point on, is that in the year 2014, being "Southern" and being "Confederate" are two completely different things.
It's sad that this has to be explained, but apparently it does.
Well, someone else, I think Mutiny, used people driving around with confederate flags in Appalachia to justify its Southerness. Which doesn't make sense to me as Appalachia was also opposed to the Confederacy. So at least some people do use the Confederate history to justify a place as Southern.
Well, someone else, I think Mutiny, used people driving around with confederate flags in Appalachia to justify its Southerness. Which doesn't make sense to me as Appalachia was also opposed to the Confederacy. So at least some people do use the Confederate history to justify a place as Southern.
Southern Appalachia was not mostly opposed to the Confederacy, that is a very old myth. As far as using the Confederacy to define the south, that is not as outdated as some people think. Parts of the south that were seen as Unionist are subjected to inherited prejudice in regard to being of the south or "southern". Southerners who think they know what the south is or should be have inherited opinions and prejudices to justify their definitions, even though they know almost nothing about the Civil War.
I've even seen some Kentucky news writers take a slam against West Virginia as not being southern because of the Civil War, which is really ironically ignorant as West Virginia was far more supportive of the Confederacy than Kentucky.
If anyone is interested in the Civil War in Appalachia Dr. Kenneth Noe of Auburn Univ. in Alabama gives a very interesting lecture here.
As far as Texas being southern, it has many of the issues of the border states, like WV, KY, etc, but generally I think of it as being southern, with cowboys.
Well, someone else, I think Mutiny, used people driving around with confederate flags in Appalachia to justify its Southerness. Which doesn't make sense to me as Appalachia was also opposed to the Confederacy. So at least some people do use the Confederate history to justify a place as Southern.
Mutiny and I have had some very different experiences then. His idea of "Southern" and mine are obviously very different. I don't speak for or with him on this subject.
I'm just baffled why people in 2014 still refer to the civil war era confederate model when discussing TODAY'S Southern culture and identity. Maybe it really is still like that where Mr. Mutiny lives? I don't know. I grew up in Texas, and I rarely ever saw confederate flags flying there. In fact, I see that far more frequently in Northern Idaho, 35 miles to the East of where I live now (I live in Eastern Washington state). I saw those flags quite a bit when I lived in Arizona as well.
The confederate flag seems to represent a certain mentality these days much more than it does a region.
Mutiny and I have had some very different experiences then. His idea of "Southern" and mine are obviously very different. I don't speak for or with him on this subject.
I'm just baffled why people in 2014 still refer to the civil war era confederate model when discussing TODAY'S Southern culture and identity. Maybe it really is still like that where Mr. Mutiny lives? I don't know. I grew up in Texas, and I rarely ever saw confederate flags flying there. In fact, I see that far more frequently in Northern Idaho, 35 miles to the East of where I live now (I live in Eastern Washington state). I saw those flags quite a bit when I lived in Arizona as well.
The confederate flag seems to represent a certain mentality these days much more than it does a region.
Sorry to hear that. I never lived in Fort Worth. I'm only speaking from my own experience.
By the way, how common is that in Fort Worth? It certainly wasn't common in the cities in Texas that I lived in (Houston, Austin, Dallas).
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Tell me something I don't know, since I was not even including the u.s. island state way way out in the Pacific. That's just a technicality, but the Hawaiians have nothing much to do with the geography of the continental u.s.
