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I am not far from you.... I'm right across the channel!!! (Belgium)
I agree, here in Belgium no one says they're white/caucasians or think that white-americans are their people..... Belgians are either Flemish (Dutch-belgians), or Wallonians (French-Belgians) and they consider themselves pretty much different races from one another, even though they're both "white" to the american eye.
You're in Belgium yay! Haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool
I'm of European descent and being White was news to me. I always just said I was a Southern European mutt if people asked. But I never said "I'm White" because I look nothing like the Nordic people that are here in the South Suburbs of Chicago. We don't even have many Italians around here. And if people say Italians are White around here people look at you funny. When I spend time in West Michigan with the Dutch NOBODY there thinks I'm White.
Then I go to my family in the Northeast where practically everyone there is Southern European or Jewish and I'm White again. But if I say "I'm White" in the Midwest people say "but you don't...look White" and they have a perplexed look on their face. What am I gonna say, "oh but you didn't hear the news? Yeah, apparently even Saudis are White now, so I belong to your club".
Saying I'm White seems like a lame attempt at belonging to some "cool" club of privilege and prestige. Conversely I never claim to be a minority, either because in the Northeastern US, I would definitely be in the majority. Sure I'm a minority in the Midwest but the US Census considers me a part of the majority. But I don't think that's accurate, either. Saying I'm White feels like sucking up to the "cool crowd" over here and saying I'm a minority feels like I am just wanting a pity party.
This is what it is..
Historically Southern Europeans were seem as "dirty whites" inferior to the superior ideal Northern Europeans but especially the Scandinavians this is why they don't consider you "one of them" because they have a narrow definition of what a white person is. This is weird because here in the UK we don't have this divide on who is and who is not white. Spanish people are seen as "white" as a Brit or a Norwegian.
If you know it or not, you WILL be considered white to the majority of the world and are in that priviledged group.
People all over the world strive to look more white to get into that priviledged cool group, its sad but true.
Well if you're just going purely off skin color than the Aboriginal Australians and South Indians should be lumped in with "Black" Africans.
Skin color? By posting that picture, I was essentially saying that just because someone is from North Africa does not mean they are dark. There are fair-skinned people in North Africa too.
And by the way, aborigines from Australia, South Indians, and some polynesians/melanesians were (or still are) thought of as belonging to the so-called Australoid race. But, that's a whole other topic.
From what I was taught years ago, races are primarily based upon bone structure. Whether or not that holds true today is not my concern. There are also what's known as subraces. For example, within the European white race there is Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean. I suppose there might be similar subraces for West Asian areas? By the way, here's a picture of a North African woman, and clearly she's a white person. Being North African does not necessarily imply being swarthy. http://www.jillandjohn.net.nz/Morocc...ith%20baby.JPG
I honestly don't understand what's so offensive about race to some people these days. This whole "walking on eggshells" mentality when it comes to race is bewildering to me. It's a 21st century phenomenon. Also, I feel that some mixed-race people who deny the existence of race do so as a way of denying a racial part of themselves that they are uncomfortable with. For example, someone who's part black and doesn't like that aspect of themselves will be likely to say "there's no such thing as race", because with that they can deny the black part of themselves.
That North African woman posted is about as common as posting pictures of Irish people who look like Italians. Yes, fair skinned North Africans exist as do fair skinned Arabs, but they are not the majority.
Also, if you want to bring up bone structure, take a look at Northeast Africans, specifically some Sudanese and Ethiopian people who have damn near identical bone structure to many Mediterranean Europeans. Nobody is calling them White.
And the "similar bone structure" thing is way overblown. Here I post pictures of celebrities who no one questions as being White who don't even have a bone structure similar to the "European norm". They show jaws that jut out, pug noses, and sloping foreheads with strong browbones which share more in common with Sub-Saharan African feature than they do with other Nordic people.
For the first picture, look at the three guys on the top left, top right, and bottom left corner and tell me they resemble the bone structure of the guy on the bottom right. Then look at the second and third picture and see how "similar" those bone structures are. Europeans don't even have similar bone structure to EACH OTHER, much less to people of other continents. Add in differing shades of skin that go from brown to almost coal black in NE Africa where bone structures are very "White", and how again is there a "White" race?
Caucasoid/Caucasian is pretty much an antiquated term, but modern genetics has shown that people from Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, and India are mostly speaking related to one another more closely than people elsewhere in the world. They don't use the term "race" any longer, but they do term roughly the same group of people now "West Eurasian."
In contrast, white as established in the U.S. is a social construct. U.S. history repeatedly shows that immigrant groups came to the U.S. and had their "whiteness" denied (beginning with Irish Catholics in the 1840s) and were eventually accepted as white within 2-3 more generations. Looking at the history of the U.S., and the recent trend towards assimilation of Latinos and Asians into mainstream "white" culture, it seems all you need to do to eventually be considered a white ethnicity in the U.S. is not be visibly black. Indeed, due to the history of the color line and slavery in the U.S., whiteness is, if anything, defined as the absence of blackness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool
*waits on people to post pics of fair skinned Middle Eastern people*
Iraqi Turkmen from Tal Afar. Notice how one gene - which results in red hair - makes an Iraqi look white. Shows how subjective perceptions of whiteness are.
Caucasoid/Caucasian is pretty much an antiquated term, but modern genetics has shown that people from Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, and India are mostly speaking related to one another more closely than people elsewhere in the world. They don't use the term "race" any longer, but they do term roughly the same group of people now "West Eurasian."
In contrast, white as established in the U.S. is a social construct. U.S. history repeatedly shows that immigrant groups came to the U.S. and had their "whiteness" denied (beginning with Irish Catholics in the 1840s) and were eventually accepted as white within 2-3 more generations. Looking at the history of the U.S., and the recent trend towards assimilation of Latinos and Asians into mainstream "white" culture, it seems all you need to do to eventually be considered a white ethnicity in the U.S. is not be visibly black. Indeed, due to the history of the color line and slavery in the U.S., whiteness is, if anything, defined as the absence of blackness.
Iraqi Turkmen from Tal Afar. Notice how one gene - which results in red hair - makes an Iraqi look white. Shows how subjective perceptions of whiteness are.
That guy could be "White" but I see no one else in that picture who is. It's not just his red hair that makes him look white, it's his skin that is more fair and freckled than anyone else, it's his less heavy facial hair, and his thinner eyebrows.
But at least you are admitting that the term "white" is super subjective and means nothing.
It doesn't matter if the people of "West Eurasian" stock become classed as one group who is genetically similar to one another. If you go back far enough, everyone is related. I am not even disagreeing that this red headed man is related to the other men in the picture. I've seen red haired Irish people who have full siblings that look like typical Italians. Which to me is very much why if even Europeans don't look alike, I say we get rid of this stupid "White" designation once and for all.
I'm of European descent and being White was news to me. I always just said I was a Southern European mutt if people asked. But I never said "I'm White" because I look nothing like the Nordic people that are here in the South Suburbs of Chicago. We don't even have many Italians around here. And if people say Italians are White around here people look at you funny. When I spend time in West Michigan with the Dutch NOBODY there thinks I'm White.
But that's a bizarre, incredibly narrow definition. It makes no sense to say Europe is inhabited by non-white people. The difference between Italians and British are minor in a worldwide scale, compared to say anyone from sub-Saharan Africa or East Asia. The US doesn't define race for the rest of the world; an Italian in Asia or Africa would obviously stand out as white. And most Italians don't look that different from continental Europe, say many French or even Austrians. Historically, while Europe always had appearance differences between regions, there was always some mixing from population movement, both historical and pre-historic. The same is true to a less extent of the Middle East near the Mediterranean. But East Asians and subsaharan Africans were separated by geography and have distinctively different facial features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool
I've seen red haired Irish people who have full siblings that look like typical Italians. Which to me is very much why if even Europeans don't look alike, I say we get rid of this stupid "White" designation once and for all.
Because they're obviously European in features, rather than from other continents. The difference in appearance from someone from elsewhere in Europe in Spain for many isn't that obvious, there's enough overlap. But any Latin American with significant indigenous heritage would stand out.
But that's a bizarre, incredibly narrow definition. It makes no sense to say Europe is inhabited by non-white people. The difference between Italians and British are minor in a worldwide scale, compared to say anyone from sub-Saharan Africa or East Asia. The US doesn't define race for the rest of the world; an Italian in Asia or Africa would obviously stand out as white. And most Italians don't look that different from continental Europe, say many French or even Austrians. Historically, while Europe always had appearance differences between regions, there was always some mixing from population movement, both historical and pre-historic. The same is true to a less extent of the Middle East near the Mediterranean. But East Asians and subsaharan Africans were separated by geography and have distinctively different facial features.
Why call them White to begin with? It absolutely makes sense to say olive skinned people of the Mediterranean aren't White. An Italian in Asia or Africa would stand out as not Asian or African, but not necessarily White.
Quote:
Because they're obviously European in features, rather than from other continents. The difference in appearance from someone from elsewhere in Europe in Spain for many isn't that obvious, there's enough overlap. But any Latin American with significant indigenous heritage would stand out.
I don't know what "European" in features means. Did you see the pics I posted? You want to talk about overlap, apparently they overlap enough into Northeast Africa. The only features that are seen across Europe as consistent as double eyelids. Nose shape varies, lip shape varies, cheekbones vary, foreheads vary, etc. I guess the one thing that is consistent is fair to medium skin complexions.
Why call them White to begin with? It absolutely makes sense to say olive skinned people of the Mediterranean aren't White. An Italian in Asia or Africa would stand out as not Asian or African, but not necessarily White. .
Most Italians aren't that different from the average European. White is synonymous with European. The same way some Americans think all East Asians look similar, all Europeans would get perceived similarly in other parts of the world. Even southern Europeans are still relatively fair.
Most Italians aren't that different from the average European. White is synonymous with European. The same way some Americans think all East Asians look similar, all Europeans would get perceived similarly in other parts of the world. Even southern Europeans are still relatively fair.
Relatively fair to what? I know many Italians who are darker than Chinese.
Back up. Didn't you say that some East Asians are fair, anyway? So clearly the skin tone thing can't apply because 1. not all Europeans have the same skin tone (compare the Irish to the Italians) and 2. fair skin isn't purely a European trait. It's not even like all Europeans with fair skin even have the same undertone. Some, like the Irish are more pink whereas those of Eastern Europe tend to be more yellow. Even when people say "but yeah Europeans have a different undertone than Asians" I don't buy that. I've seen Asians with varying undertones just like Europeans. A Mediterranean's undertone is not going to be the same as someone from the British Isles. I agree there is some overlap, but those are the exceptions and this is why people agree that there is an "Irish" look or an "Italian" look.
Also, you just said "White" is synonymous with European. Does this now mean you agree that Arabs and Jews can't be White since they are not technically Europeans? I know Jews have been living in Europe for millennia but so have the Romani, and we both know neither has their ethnic origin in Europe but the Middle East and India, respectively.
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