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The point I was trying to make, and I try to make it with this Y0N guy all the time, is that every other truly subtropical region on earth just doesn't get those kinds of temps you get in the South. Consider the record low in Nice France is 19F. Mobile AL is 3F. Pensacola record low is 5F. And this happened in 1985, not a hunderd years ago. Wow. In Australia, Europe, Argentina, South Africa, India, etc this would be earth shattering record breaking cold. But even Mobile has gone down into the teens numerous times. Just this winter and last winter in fact. That is just too cold for a subtropical climate.
Nice is located at latitude 45N, which is about as far north as Minnesota lol. In Europe, places not even close to your latitude never go below freezing or just barely. The average annual winter min temp is above 30F in many places in Spain, Italy, France and Greece, Australia the same thing, yet your area goes down to the low 20'sF every winter. Only a tiny little portion of the most southern parts of the US can claim USDA growing zone 10 (extreme winter min temp of 30F or above).
North America is directly connected to the Arctic with no east-west mountain chain. Just about every other continent connected to the Arctic has huge mountains to help block arctic air. That is the reason for the cold, not some crackpot "cold epoch" theory.
Those cold temps in the South happened precisely because of the Cold Epoch, nothing more. And during the 80s, that factor was enhanced by the atmospheric disturbances caused by the Mt. St. Helen's eruption. Luckily, the Cold Epoch is lessening; notice, if you will, that as cold as some places have got in the South, the temps are nowhere near as severe as what was seen during the 20th Century, when the Cold Epoch was much stronger.
The whole "no-east-west" mountains thing applies not just to North America, but also East Asia, and the very continents on the Southern Hemisphere, especially South America, and, to a lesser extent, Africa, and Australia. All that geographic phenomenon was ever known to cause was increased occurrence of tornadoes in the Great Plains; no other part of the continent sees the effects of such geography. There is no literature out there that specifically identifies the lack of mountains as the sole driver of such cold. And even if that were true, we have plenty of scientists in the country that have proposed solutions that can feasibly be enacted.
Anyways, the US South has plenty of Zone 10 areas, in the Florida Peninsula, the Texas coastline/barrier islands, and the extreme outer delta areas of Louisiana (Plaquemines Parish). The entire area of zone 10 in the South, when you add it up, is just as large as it is in other subtropical regions. In addition, many of the areas that aren't Zone 10 in the South are very strong 9Bs, and function as zone 10s for quite some time, with an upgrade becoming more, and more possible.
How about the fact of full scale plantations, dedicated to growing the tropical sugar cane, in the entirety of the Coastal South? Or the fact that the US South contains a tropical climate OUTSIDE of the tropics (South Florida), a feat accomplished by almost no other subtropical region in the world, especially not by many of the regions you listed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Want to know why it used to be super cheap and isn't now? Because the truly warm winter regions of the US are tiny little areas. And those areas are now chock full of people and land is a premium and so is real estate. I imagine at some point south Florida will be as expensive as New York City. Already little tiny cottages blocks from the ocean in Miami Beach are over $1M.
The tip of Florida, southern CA, and Hawaii are just about it for the USA if you want a truly warm winter. We have over 300M people and growing more every day in this country, and what do you think will happen when they all try to cram into southern Florida?
If the southeastern states truly were a warm winter paradise, many more would be moving to the inland South further north which is cheaper. Is Jackson, MS booming with retirees flooding in to enjoy high temps of 50F in January and low temps of 32F. No they are not. Atlanta is not booming with retirees, but more younger workers. Honestly Atlanta really isn't that warm compared to South Florida. In reality places in the inland South can get very cold in winter. That is why everyone will continue to try to cram into S. Florida. Just imagine when Florida has 30-40 million people. What do you think that will look like?
You fail again. Its not just Southern California, Florida, and Hawaii, but also Southern Arizona, and the coastal portions of the South that see true, long lasting warmth during winter. Coastal South locations, from Myrtle Beach to Miami, and west to Galveston and South Padre Island, are renowned for their subtropical conditions, with mild/warm winter weather. Many inland South locations also see snowbirds, especially areas in south/central Texas like Austin, San Antonio, and Del Rio. Jackson, Miss, and Atlanta do see snowbirds too, though less than in warmer areas of the South.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Post #141 brings up jaguars and ocelots as being "subtropical animals" that live in the South. People often use terms such as jaguar, ocelot, panther, cougar, etc interchangeably, which was the point of my post, and which I supported with at least one link. Since so many people use these terms interchangeably, I was considering the strong possibility that the author of post #141 may be doing the same thing that so many people do, from various regions. If he was doing so, then no wonder he thinks that jaguars and ocelots are running rampant throughout the south. We do have plenty of "cougars, catamounts, panthers, and painters" down here, along with about 30 other names for them.
But thanks for being such a stickler for detail. Hopefully I've cleared the details up for you now.
No, I am not talking about cougars, I am talking about actual jaguars, and ocelots, as in, the tropical cats commonly seen in Central/South America. The South is warm enough to have supported such animals in the native habitats of the region; the only reasons their ranges are not more extensive at this time is due solely to poaching, and other adverse human influences on the environment.
Those cold temps in the South happened precisely because of the Cold Epoch, nothing more. And during the 80s, that factor was enhanced by the atmospheric disturbances caused by the Mt. St. Helen's eruption. Luckily, the Cold Epoch is lessening; notice, if you will, that as cold as some places have got in the South, the temps are nowhere near as severe as what was seen during the 20th Century, when the Cold Epoch was much stronger.
The whole "no-east-west" mountains thing applies not just to North America, but also East Asia, and the very continents on the Southern Hemisphere, especially South America, and, to a lesser extent, Africa, and Australia. All that geographic phenomenon was ever known to cause was increased occurrence of tornadoes in the Great Plains; no other part of the continent sees the effects of such geography. There is no literature out there that specifically identifies the lack of mountains as the sole driver of such cold. And even if that were true, we have plenty of scientists in the country that have proposed solutions that can feasibly be enacted.
Anyways, the US South has plenty of Zone 10 areas, in the Florida Peninsula, the Texas coastline/barrier islands, and the extreme outer delta areas of Louisiana (Plaquemines Parish). The entire area of zone 10 in the South, when you add it up, is just as large as it is in other subtropical regions. In addition, many of the areas that aren't Zone 10 in the South are very strong 9Bs, and function as zone 10s for quite some time, with an upgrade becoming more, and more possible.
How about the fact of full scale plantations, dedicated to growing the tropical sugar cane, in the entirety of the Coastal South? Or the fact that the US South contains a tropical climate OUTSIDE of the tropics (South Florida), a feat accomplished by almost no other subtropical region in the world, especially not by many of the regions you listed.
You fail again. Its not just Southern California, Florida, and Hawaii, but also Southern Arizona, and the coastal portions of the South that see true, long lasting warmth during winter. Coastal South locations, from Myrtle Beach to Miami, and west to Galveston and South Padre Island, are renowned for their subtropical conditions, with mild/warm winter weather. Many inland South locations also see snowbirds, especially areas in south/central Texas like Austin, San Antonio, and Del Rio. Jackson, Miss, and Atlanta do see snowbirds too, though less than in warmer areas of the South.
No, I am not talking about cougars, I am talking about actual jaguars, and ocelots, as in, the tropical cats commonly seen in Central/South America. The South is warm enough to have supported such animals in the native habitats of the region; the only reasons their ranges are not more extensive at this time is due solely to poaching, and other adverse human influences on the environment.
Look, I'm southern to the bone and love me some southern climates (all of them) but as big a fan I am of the south, I'm just not going to go with the whole "subtropical paradise" thing as applied to the whole region or even large swaths of the region. You can argue all day long but so far I don't think anyone's agreeing with you.
In all my years living in the south, from MD to Texas and just about everywhere in between, I've experienced snow, ice, and sleet EVERY SINGLE WINTER in EVERY SINGLE PLACE I've lived. Sorry, but that's not typical of subtropical climates. Not every year - sometimes several times a year. My gosh, I live in east Texas now and we've already had snow flurries several times this year (starting before Thanksgiving), and sleet several times as well, and this isn't a particularly cold winter (it's about 68 degrees outside right now in fact).
I mean, it may be paradise, but it's not a subtropical one.
Most people prefer the heat to the cold that's why when people retire they always move south. You never hear about anybody retiring and moving north. I'm not a big fan of the heat either but most people are compared to the cold.
No, most old people prefer heat to cold, because many old people have poor blood circulation and get cold easily, even when the air temp is warm. My grandmother used to complain about how "cold" it was when it was in the 70's outside. She'd turn on the heater in her house even during summer sometimes, and this was in Houston!
And not all retirees "always" move South either. Many do, for the reasons explained in my first paragraph... but there are more than a few who choose to stay put, or in some instances even move further North. Most younger people I know (by "younger", I mean anything South of 60) prefer the cold over heat. Maybe your experience with people is different from mine, but I definitely wouldn't say "most" people prefer heat over cold, in general. Just most senior citizens.
Jaguars lived all throughout the South in the past, from East Texas, all the way to Florida, where warm enough conditions were present. Such warm conditions, as indicated by the article, are found as far north as Ohio. Just one of the many things that prove the true, warm nature of the Eastern US during winter. The absence of jaguars in many of these areas is due solely to hunters and poachers.
If not for human alterations on the environment, those two cats would still be roaming the South in large numbers.
Again, the South truly is a warm subtropical region, and much of that is due to the warm influence of the Gulf, which allows warm, maritime conditions to extend even to the Great Lakes regions. This time of "frequent" cold and freezing is due solely to the Cold Epoch, and nothing more. In truth, the South features environments telling of the true warmth such as...
Forget just subtropical crops like cotton, rice, and citrus; in large areas of the South, you can cultivate mangoes, papayas, bananas, sugar cane, and other such tropical crops without such problems, even to a commercial scale, as has been done with sugar cane.
The 6F was an aberration due to the Cold Epoch, and nothing else. Freezing temps and below only occur at most a handful of times in large areas of the South, and even when they occur, temps quickly warm up to pleasant levels. Majority of winter lows in the South, especially coastal areas, are in the 40F and 50F range. Far inland, highly elevated, and/or northern areas of the region is where 30F nights become more common place.
Another aberration due to the Cold Epoch, and nothing more. Also, Atlanta is a highly elevated, and mountainous city, and thus will see quite cool weather relative to much of the South.
I read it, and its former range only stretched from present day Los Angeles east to south Texas (what seems to be Houston).
OHIO, my Lord, what is wrong with you, OHIO? WTF, please, just stop, i wont even bother to argue this with you, my mind is blown.
those anemic forest pictures prove nothing, I used to work for people in here in Los Angeles own homes that have full blown tropical rainforests planted in their back and front yards, as if surrounded by jungle, these landscaping jobs here make those US South "rainforests" look anemic in comparison, a palmetto besides those trees proves nothing.
that coral reef pic could be anywhere. ill assure you that isnt in the US South (the only plausible place is the Florida Keys).
you are wrong, only South Florida could grow them not TX, nor the Louisiana Delta (didnt you assure us, and even said you witnessed cocos in the Louisiana Delta? why do you say "maybe" this time, were you lying? of course you were)
please papayas, sugarcane, and Bananas are a staple crop among Hispanic owned homes here in the LA Area, mostly or its fruit, but also for its aesthetics. and LA is dominated by Hispanics, and guess what just because these plants grow in abundance here doesnt make us tropical, neither does it make the US South tropical.
Ventura had (no longer existing) Banana Fields, that cultivated on a commercial scale, again doesnt make us tropical.
Cold Epoch, why do you continue with this stupid phrase that we "amateur meterologists" have never heard about?
The hills behind my house are of higher elevation than Atlanta, and have never seen temps as cold as Atlanta's April record low temps, neither does Atlanta have as warm a climate year round as those hills.
With the exception of the portion known as the "Dixie Alley," the risk of any real tornadoes in the South is so low that they aren't worth worrying about. As for flooding, no, minor, run-of-the-mill floods that only inundate low-lying streets don't count; the risk of real, major flooding in the South is no higher than the risk in other areas of the country, and in fact, can even be lower, as the lush, swampy vegetation in much of the region helps to soak up the water like a sponge. Hurricanes are among the safest of natural disasters in terms of avoiding the effects; you get lots of prep time to evacuate, or fortify the residence to the point that safety is guaranteed. Its so safe that even hurricane parties can be thrown.
No, if the rainfall/thunderstorm was intense, well-developed, and long-lasting enough, then the air will be a lot cooler, and more refreshing, in spite of the humidity, due to the lowered temperatures. Some of the most comfortable air I ever felt was in the South right after a good, soaking thunderstorm.
The South dehumidifies during the cool season in the sense that dew points, and humidity decrease from summer levels due to Canadian cool fronts, allowing for the refreshingly mild sunny days, with crisp air.
Only far inland, norther, and/or highly elevated areas of the South see regular snowfall. In the rest of the region, snow, or winter precipitation of any kind, is a matter of generations.
I never disputed that the heat of the South is more consistent than up North; I merely stated that many areas of the country, especially the Northeast and Midwest, can get the same summer temp magnitudes as the South, only for those areas to get far colder winters. The heat of the South is more consistent, but its yearly temp range is not as great as that seen in the Northeast, Midwest, and even parts of the West, making for a climate that is quite easy to adjust to.
I never said that the South has a Mediterranean climate; I simply stated that the presence of plentiful mild, sunny days that the South sees during winter is not unlike what is seen in the Mediterranean(in reference to the geographic area). But, in all honesty, the South, being a humid subtropical climate, would be more comparable to other pleasant subtropical regions, such as North India, and Eastern South Africa.
I will reiterate, the Appalachians aren't as tall as the western ranges, but they have their own unique appeal that those Western ranges don't capture at all, including the worn, ancient feel, and jungle-esque experience. The fall colors of the Appalachians reflect a spectacular Southern spin on the whole regime, a beautiful mixing of the green subtropical look with the Northern-style reds, yellows, and oranges. The Aspens are beautiful, but their fall color is quite monotone compared to the Appalachians. The Ozarks, along with the Texas Hill Country, all are great for the aforementioned reasons.
Glad to see that we have something in common.
I never disputed that other regions have their own unique flora, and fauna, but I should have been more specific; what I should have said is that the concentration of unique flora, and fauna in the South is greater than that of other regions; the South has more flora, and fauna that can't be seen elsewhere than any other part of the country. In addition, the flora and fauna is quite diverse, with an amalgamation of eastern, western, northern, native southern, and even tropical American species found nowhere else in the country.
Those extremely cold hardy palms are nothing special, being able to survive in the Arctic Circle. The South, on the other hand, not only can grow all those palms and plants, the region can also sustain lots of tender subtropical/tropical vegetation, from rice to citrus, to sugar cane, to the many varieties of broad-leaf evergreens and palms, to even bananas, mangoes, papayas, and star fruit. Even plants from the equatorial regions, the most tender plants on Earth, such as lipstick palms, and durian, can grow only in the South in the CONUS.
It was the South that had the distinct flavor, style, and vibe to create those music genres(Jazz, and Blues), or contribute heavily to the origins of such genres(Hip Hop). Southern Hip Hop is the worst? Gucci Mane, 2 Chainz, Ludacris, Travis $cott, Lil Wayne, DJ Khaled, and several others all would disagree with that.
Its not just New Orleans, and Miami that have interesting, unique vibes; pretty much all the coastal cities of the South, like Corpus Christi, Houston, Mobile, Tampa, Daytona Beach, and Charleston have unique, dynamic vibes that words just can't describe, which comes with them all being cities on a warm, subtropical coastline. In addition, San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, Charlotte, and other large Southern cities away from the coast also have unique, interesting vibes as well. To say otherwise would be silly.
No, the South, especially the Coastal South, just has a type of fun, and flair in the festivities, and parties that other regions don't quite capture quite as well. Those other regions may know how to party, but the South knows how to PARTY, and throw it all down, a trait that probably manifests from a warm, subtropical/tropical setting. Rio de Janerio can definitely testify for that.
The historic architecture of the South is yet another manifestation of the flamboyance, extravagance, and flair that results from a warm, subtropical setting. As beautiful as the historic architecture is up North, and in the Midwest, I find them too bold and dreary compared to the colorful, extravagant historic architecture of the South. And its not just cities like Charleston, Savannah, St. Augustine, New Orleans, Galveston, and San Antonio that have such distinct historic architecture, cities like Houston, Tampa, Miami, Dallas, and Atlanta also have very distinct historic areas, and constructs, a lot more than people would like to have you believe. The same sort of flair holds true for the homes and residences constructed in all of those cities.
As far as walkability, I already stated that Southern cities haven't achieved the urban renaissance to the same extent that the other regions have. However, what I believe is that once the South reaches that sufficient state of urbanity, just the uniqueness of the style, as well as the sheer revolutionary aspect, of advanced mass transit, with hardcore pedestrian infrastructure, existing in a Southern city would spark lots of interest, as people would be willing to see the unique spin the South take on with the whole "walkability" regime. Imagine a well developed Maglev system existing in Houston, Dallas, or Miami. That would be epic.
Snow and ice storms are merely occasional, a matter of generations in the Coastal South especially, just like they are in the Mediterranean Basin, or in other humid subtropical paradises, such as North India, and Eastern South Africa. Real tornadoes are quite infrequent as well.
Again, I never referred to the South as having a Med climate pattern; I said that the plentiful mild sunny days during winter is a trait the South shares in common with other warm regions of the world, one of which happens to be the Med (as in, the basin including Southern Europe, and North Africa).
I just feel that its time that for people in the US to start waking up, and reap all the benefits of the awesome, subtropical region they have in the South. If the US utilizes the South to full potential, it can have its own answer to awesome cities in the tropical/subtropical world, such as Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Buenos Aires; the US would finally have completely walk-able, and urban subtropical cities with efficient infrastructure, and amenities, just like in the other world cities named.
The women in the South are gorgeous, without a doubt. The humidity seems to have a youthful effect on the skin, and the warm climate brings out the personality.
The more I look at the water, and coastal environment of Galveston, the more that I feel that the quality and color of the water just isn't natural at all. I believe alterations on the Mississippi River flow, along with the effects of industry along the Gulf Coast, contribute to the current state of Galveston's water. And whether or not the water color is natural, we do have the technology to fix it; such technology has already been implemented in the beaches of China, many of which have murky water like Galveston, clearing up the water.
Those people just couldn't handle the true facts I was dishing out to them; they couldn't take the own-age. That's why they closed the threads.
Honestly, CD is more entertaining than Youtube these days, and it has definitely filled the role that TV has played before.
I definitely would not say CD is more entertaining than Youtube.
I read it, and its former range only stretched from present day Los Angeles east to south Texas (what seems to be Houston).
A word of advice:
You're never going to get through to this OP. I've done my time arguing in endless circles with this guy in the past in several other topic-related threads, and he will just keep coming back and coming back at you, over and over and over with endless, long-winded, multiple paragraphed responses reiterating the same nonsense, again and again and again... no matter how many facts you throw on the table.
Save yourself some frustration and just let him indulge his fantasy, believing that the South is some kind of lush tropical paradise where you'll never need air conditioning or heat.
No, most old people prefer heat to cold, because many old people have poor blood circulation and get cold easily, even when the air temp is warm. My grandmother used to complain about how "cold" it was when it was in the 70's outside. She'd turn on the heater in her house even during summer sometimes, and this was in Houston!
And not all retirees "always" move South either. Many do, for the reasons explained in my first paragraph... but there are more than a few who choose to stay put, or in some instances even move further North. Most younger people I know (by "younger", I mean anything South of 60) prefer the cold over heat. Maybe your experience with people is different from mine, but I definitely wouldn't say "most" people prefer heat over cold, in general. Just most senior citizens.
Where you grow up makes a big difference. People in the south much prefer the heat but people that grew up in the north prefer the cold to the heat. So not only is it old vs. young but where a person grew up. As for the cold vs. heat debate I was generalizing.
Where you grow up makes a big difference. People in the south much prefer the heat but people that grew up in the north prefer the cold to the heat. So not only is it old vs. young but where a person grew up. As for the cold vs. heat debate I was generalizing.
Not true. I grew up in the South. I MUCH prefer the cold. And I'm not the only one, believe me. I now live in a much colder climate, and I know more than a few other people up here who grew up in hot places and moved here to escape it.
Where you grow up makes a big difference. People in the south much prefer the heat but people that grew up in the north prefer the cold to the heat. So not only is it old vs. young but where a person grew up. As for the cold vs. heat debate I was generalizing.
That's definitely debatable. I'm from the South and I prefer both. Don't mind the cold or the heat. I have cousins that grew up in Chicago and they are trying to find ways to get to Texas, Atlanta, or Florida because of the cold.
I wore shorts because it's all I had. Teens aren't that bad.
20's and 30's is decent and 40's+ is comfy (in my perspective).
I just wasn't meant to live in the south I guess LOL
20s and 30s aren't bad when the wind is hardly blowing. In fact, I would rather it be 22 with calm winds and sunny than 47 with rain and wind. IMO, the absolute worst weather to me is rain and temps in the 40s.
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