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Old 02-18-2015, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,549,319 times
Reputation: 946

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
We agree there are differences, but I think it's the extent of those differences that are debatable. I do understand that historic migration patterns have had a lot to do with the cultures, and that the Mid-Atlantic is linked to the lower Midwest in that sense, but the historical and demographic aspects that create a common thread throughout the Northeast also should not be underestimated (e.g., higher rates of Catholicism/lower rates of evangelical Christianity, higher ethnic white identification of Irish/Italian, more significant Jewish population, strong local government, denser built environment, and colonial-era prominence). Not to mention topography and weather.
Is it that it shouldn't be underestimated or is it that you are personally overestimating these "similarities"? i haven't even got into Amish population in PA with is really nonexistent in Massachusetts. Forget Lancaster County I can hop on US15 north past Duncannon heading towards Selinsgrove PA and you constantly see the Amish out and about on there bicycles and horse and buggies. Your not going to find that in Massachusetts.

Or the Appalachian culture in the southwestern part of PA. Or the fact Pittsburgh is called the Paris of Appalachia because it's development compared to other areas of Appalachia especially in West Virginia and Kentucky. Honestly I think your extremely overestimating how close Pennsylvania is to New England.

As far as topography goes PA is closest to WV and as far as weather goes PA is actually closer Maryland and West Virginia then it is to New England and even closer to Virginia most of the time compared to New England.

Quote:
The "center of gravity" in Pennsylvania, in terms of commerce and population, is much closer to the Northeast Corridor than anywhere close to the Midwest. This continues to be the case as the southeast quadrant of the state is now receiving essentially all of Pennsylvania's growth -- so the cultural/commercial linkage with the rest of the Northeast is also growing with time.
Pennsylvania isn't Midwestern however a good chunk of the Midwest is Pennsylvanian is better way of looking at the history. In Pennsylvania in terms of commerce and population most of that is closest to the "Midatlantic" region which centers around DC and Baltimore if you want to get technical and the cultural/commercial relationship has been mostly improving between PA and the Midatlantic.
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Old 02-18-2015, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,246 posts, read 10,493,980 times
Reputation: 8758
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Is it that it shouldn't be underestimated or is it that you are personally overestimating these "similarities"? i haven't even got into Amish population in PA with is really nonexistent in Massachusetts. Forget Lancaster County I can hop on US15 north past Duncannon heading towards Selinsgrove PA and you constantly see the Amish out and about on there bicycles and horse and buggies. Your not going to find that in Massachusetts.
I completely understand that the Amish are a unique aspect of Pennsylvania (although it's little known that many of migrated to NY and OH), but I was again just highlighting that similarities to the rest of the NE. Topographically, the Appalachians do technically run into Maine, also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Pennsylvania isn't Midwestern however a good chunk of the Midwest is Pennsylvanian is better way of looking at the history. In Pennsylvania in terms of commerce and population most of that is closest to the "Midatlantic" region which centers around DC and Baltimore if you want to get technical and the cultural/commercial relationship has been mostly improving between PA and the Midatlantic.
We can agree on those points, but I will add that there are strong Mid-Atlantic connections to both the Balt-Wash region as well as the New York metro--but as I said, the eastern portion of the state in particular does have more ties to New England.
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Old 02-19-2015, 07:45 AM
 
18 posts, read 17,074 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Is it that it shouldn't be underestimated or is it that you are personally overestimating these "similarities"? i haven't even got into Amish population in PA with is really nonexistent in Massachusetts. Forget Lancaster County I can hop on US15 north past Duncannon heading towards Selinsgrove PA and you constantly see the Amish out and about on there bicycles and horse and buggies. Your not going to find that in Massachusetts.

Or the Appalachian culture in the southwestern part of PA. Or the fact Pittsburgh is called the Paris of Appalachia because it's development compared to other areas of Appalachia especially in West Virginia and Kentucky. Honestly I think your extremely overestimating how close Pennsylvania is to New England.

As far as topography goes PA is closest to WV and as far as weather goes PA is actually closer Maryland and West Virginia then it is to New England and even closer to Virginia most of the time compared to New England.



Pennsylvania isn't Midwestern however a good chunk of the Midwest is Pennsylvanian is better way of looking at the history. In Pennsylvania in terms of commerce and population most of that is closest to the "Midatlantic" region which centers around DC and Baltimore if you want to get technical and the cultural/commercial relationship has been mostly improving between PA and the Midatlantic.
You remind me of a lot of people here in Alabama. "How dare you say we are similar to Mississippi!!!" You point out differences to prove you're right, but then you completely ignore the similarities or dismiss them as irrelevant or say they are overestimated. Parts of PA are very similar to New England, parts aren't. PA has much more in common with New England than the south, despite you claiming it is as different to Mass as it is to Alabama.

The point of the thread isn't necessarily that everywhere is the EXACT same, as you seem to think, but that you can tell, regardless of where you are in America, that it is America. In that regard, everywhere is similar.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,549,319 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBayBlues View Post
You remind me of a lot of people here in Alabama. "How dare you say we are similar to Mississippi!!!" You point out differences to prove you're right, but then you completely ignore the similarities or dismiss them as irrelevant or say they are overestimated. Parts of PA are very similar to New England, parts aren't. PA has much more in common with New England than the south, despite you claiming it is as different to Mass as it is to Alabama.
Really?

Okay I point out the differences because people just automatically label PA as being Northeastern and actually think PA is just like Massachusetts and other New England states. Which is not the case and PA even differs a lot from NY and NJ and you had others from Massachusetts on here agreeing with me on this that the two states are quite different from each other. I used the Alabama reference saying PA has about as much as in common with Alabama as it does with Massachusetts which is to say very little to almost no connection whatsoever. Would you prefer I use Tennessee for a Southern reference and use Rhode Island for a New England reference next time to get my point across?

Almost all of the similarities listed where the I-95 corridor similarities and the US Census bureau definition of the region. PA isn't New York Philly does not dominate the state anywhere near how NYC dominates all of New York. All of these similarities are mostly about Philly while completing ignoring the rest of the state....even upstate NY as well for that matter in most of these type of discussions.

As far as the Census Bureau definition goes it's just how they grouped the states together at the time. Does it hold any real political and culture significance in the present? No it doesn't. In fact the EPA and federal reserve have Pennsylvania grouped a lot differently. Is the EPA and federal reserve wrong to do so? No they are not.

Now my Appalachian comment was to show if it wasn't for Pittsburgh most of Western PA would be extremely poor. Unlike West Virginia and Kentucky Pennsylvania was historically able to build up this region of the state. West Virginia never did historically and neither did Kentucky or other states for that matter. That is why Pittsburgh is referred to as the Paris of Appalachia because it is a success story and was and still is to my knowledge the most prosperous city in the region. New England doesn't have the Appalachia region running through it at all. Coal is something New England lacks and doesn't have that aspect in it's state history. Nor did you have a bunch of people from New England settling in Appalachia either like you had people from Pennsylvania doing.

Quote:
The point of the thread isn't necessarily that everywhere is the EXACT same, as you seem to think, but that you can tell, regardless of where you are in America, that it is America. In that regard, everywhere is similar.
There is a general American culture me and you will agree about that. However myself along with others would agree there are also a lot of differences which can't be ignored in which the op is wrong thinking the country is a lot more similar everywhere then it truly is.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:21 AM
 
12,883 posts, read 13,887,486 times
Reputation: 18448
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Is it that it shouldn't be underestimated or is it that you are personally overestimating these "similarities"? i haven't even got into Amish population in PA with is really nonexistent in Massachusetts. Forget Lancaster County I can hop on US15 north past Duncannon heading towards Selinsgrove PA and you constantly see the Amish out and about on there bicycles and horse and buggies. Your not going to find that in Massachusetts.

Or the Appalachian culture in the southwestern part of PA. Or the fact Pittsburgh is called the Paris of Appalachia because it's development compared to other areas of Appalachia especially in West Virginia and Kentucky. Honestly I think your extremely overestimating how close Pennsylvania is to New England.

As far as topography goes PA is closest to WV and as far as weather goes PA is actually closer Maryland and West Virginia then it is to New England and even closer to Virginia most of the time compared to New England.



Pennsylvania isn't Midwestern however a good chunk of the Midwest is Pennsylvanian is better way of looking at the history. In Pennsylvania in terms of commerce and population most of that is closest to the "Midatlantic" region which centers around DC and Baltimore if you want to get technical and the cultural/commercial relationship has been mostly improving between PA and the Midatlantic.
Why are you so obsessed with the MA/PA comparison? No one said all NE states have to be exactly like each other. The NE is made up of New England and parts of the Mid-Atlantic. Most of PA is more in line with NJ and NY, fellow Mid-Atlantic states, fellow NE states.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,873,163 times
Reputation: 12390
Hell, if you ask people out here in Pittsburgh - people from Pittsburgh - the vast majority of will say it's a Northeastern city, and get kinda insulted if you claim Pittsburgh's in the Midwest, as if you're implying anything over the Appalachian crest isn't good enough for the Northeast or something.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,549,319 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Why are you so obsessed with the MA/PA comparison? No one said all NE states have to be exactly like each other. The NE is made up of New England and parts of the Mid-Atlantic. Most of PA is more in line with NJ and NY, fellow Mid-Atlantic states, fellow NE states.
Let me turn this around and ask why you or anyone else for that matter is so obessed with PA being a north eastern state? The reason why I point out PA isn't a northeastern state is because it lacks much of anything in common with New England. Also most of PA is more inline with MD and NJ not NY. Of all Pennsylvania's neighbors New York and PA might actually be the furthest apart. I'm saying this as having been stationed at Fort Drum NY for 3 years that upstate NY is actually more similar to New England then PA. In regards to NYC it's closest to CT and NJ and not Pennsylvania. If people think I'm pointing out differences between PA and New England because of personal politics or whatever it's not. In fact I've stated before that I view PA being closer to Maryland which is a very blue state then it's other neighbors. I point this out because my state constantly gets lumped together with a bunch of other states we honestly have very little to nothing in common with ie New England.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,873,163 times
Reputation: 12390
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Let me turn this around and ask why you or anyone else for that matter is so obessed with PA being a north eastern state? The reason why I point out PA isn't a northeastern state is because it lacks much of anything in common with New England. Also most of PA is more inline with MD and NJ not NY. Of all Pennsylvania's neighbors New York and PA might actually be the furthest apart. I'm saying this as having been stationed at Fort Drum NY for 3 years that upstate NY is actually more similar to New England then PA. In regards to NYC it's closest to CT and NJ and not Pennsylvania. If people think I'm pointing out differences between PA and New England because of personal politics or whatever it's not. In fact I've stated before that I view PA being closer to Maryland which is a very blue state then it's other neighbors. I point this out because my state constantly gets lumped together with a bunch of other states we honestly have very little to nothing in common with ie New England.
Everyone agrees that New Jersey is a Northeastern state though. And these days, most people call Maryland and Delaware part of the Northeast as well.

Once again Northeast does not equal New England + New York. It's bigger than that.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,549,319 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Everyone agrees that New Jersey is a Northeastern state though. And these days, most people call Maryland and Delaware part of the Northeast as well.

Once again Northeast does not equal New England + New York. It's bigger than that.
The problem I have with Northeast though is the fact we group PA and even Maryland for that matter with states that we share little to nothing in common with. Can anyone really explain accurately what the hell Northeastern culture is for example? No I-95 corridor garbage I'm talking about culture you will find throughout all of the states in the region. Since we don't share the same linguistics, we don't share the same history, we don't share the same government traditions ie townhall meetings for example, we don't/didn't share the same industries which sets the attitudes and experiences for people living in there states, and a lot of beliefs in this area can really be out of whack with each other. More then a few people in New England believe the Mason Dixon line actually has real cultural meaning instead of just realizing it was to settle a land dispute.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,246 posts, read 10,493,980 times
Reputation: 8758
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Let me turn this around and ask why you or anyone else for that matter is so obessed with PA being a north eastern state? The reason why I point out PA isn't a northeastern state is because it lacks much of anything in common with New England. Also most of PA is more inline with MD and NJ not NY. Of all Pennsylvania's neighbors New York and PA might actually be the furthest apart. I'm saying this as having been stationed at Fort Drum NY for 3 years that upstate NY is actually more similar to New England then PA.
I thought we were in agreement a few posts ago, but now you're going down so many different roads of logic here. Let's establish a few facts:

1. The Northeast region is, at the very least, comprised of New England and the Upper-Mid Atlantic. This indubitably includes Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. This is simple, long-standing geography.

2. Of course being closer to New England, upstate New York would have more ties to New England, but downstate NY is very inextricably tied to NJ and PA. Even Southwestern Connecticut is often disassociated from the rest of New England for its relation to the NYC metro.

You're from the South-Central part of the state, so clearly you're going to feel a bit more of a tie to a place like Maryland. That makes complete sense; they're border states, and the relationship between PA and MD has been made stronger by the pull of the Balt/Wash region. But there is no question that the most long-standing and historical ties have been between PA, NJ and NY.
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