Is Tampa the South to you? (places, quality, famous)
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With that said, Miami, Orlando, and Tampa are very Southern. Take away the palm trees and replace them with maple trees and it's very clear. The overstressed infrastructure (a hallmark in the South), people trying to talk to you everywhere you go, the more casual dressing, the car culture, the disastrous urban planning, the lack of focus on education or social services, the food obsessions, underlying religiosity at many events etc. Florida is about as southern as can be. Only thing that has changed is the amount people, the cost of living, and pace of life. Florida and Texas are just the South on steroids with a Latin flare and some palm trees.
Half of these are offensive stereotypes, the rest are just as true in other parts of the country...
Florida does have some history that is unique compared to other southern states. It was originally settled by the Spanish. It's also had migration patterns that are completely different than the rest of the south. Texas of course was a part of Mexico (along with NM, AZ, CA, etc) and has a huge portion of its geography covered by the great plains. It's not a crazy idea that hey, maybe these states don't completely fit into a single bucket.
I mean, FWIW I grew up in urban/suburban Florida and I identify as a Southerner, with no asterisks needed. Where is Florida? The South. What region did I stay fully living in til age 23? The South. Hell, I was almost 22 when I first set foot in a northern state (Kansas). For most of my life the only state I had been in, was Florida. And then for most of my adult life, it was Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and all the states west of there til Texas. The South was the only part of the country I had known. How can I identify as another region? And don't gimme that "Florida is it's own thing". All states are. And Florida got nothing on Texas, which is still the South. Texas reminded me a lot of Florida, anyway.
You also mentioned: "my family in Clearwater, FL felt more connected to the places that we lived prior, Columbia, MD and Bellevue, WA." There's your issue. There's places you had lived in before that you felt a connection to. For my family, the only place we lived in before was Cuba, but I didn't grow up in Cuba. I feel Cuban by heritage but that's about it. You're gonna tell me that after almost 24 years of living in this country I should feel more Cuban than American? Gimme a break. Cubans are to Florida like what the Cajuns are to Louisiana. Give it several more generations and the Cuban-American Floridian community will be just as southernised as the Cajuns in Southern Louisiana. A lot of my Cuban relatives in north Florida already sound just as country as many Cajuns do, and they've intermarried native Floridians, white and black alike, with strong southern drawls. South Florida is just urban, but that doesn't make it non-southern.
Btw this song is probably the best hip hop anthem for Miami. Will Smith, who?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvq8wvwZsvM Idk about you but this to me sounds like classic Dirty South hip hop. I'm not even a big hip hop fan, but you can't deny it's influence in MODERN southern culture (that's another thing, y'all focus on outdated stereotypes, it's 2020. Li'l Wayne is just as southern as Hank Williams) especially in the 2000s when the South and Midwest were put on the map against the East and West Coast. In terms of urban culture, Miami, Tampa and maybe even Jacksonville are very connected to Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans and Memphis.
I was cruising around the beaches, going to Rowdies and Bucs games and driving late night with my friends over to Ybor before you were even born. Heck, you didn't even visit another state until 2009. I'm certainly not blaming you for when you were born, but do you think that it's possible, just for a slight moment, that Florida was a bit different then, and that it's possible that many perceptions of Florida by Floridians and people from other places have changed in the last 25 years? I certainly do. And in fact I've come to think that more of FL today general embraces being in the South than it used to.
You've also mentioned that growing up in FL felt isolated from the rest of the country. Now imagine that without the internet! Without any Southern relics other than weird roadside attractions in inland or northern FL, which was flyover land to many of us, many urban Floridians had far more in common with just about any other region than the South (by the way, re-read my last comment- my family was from other places. Like you, I knew no differently. My point, again, was that Central FL reminded my family more of NorVa and Eastside Seattle than Mobile or Macon or even Tallahassee).
Anyway, pre-internet made it feel like Peninsular Floridians-right or wrong- were living in a different cultural place entirely. And in my opinion, the difference between many FL cities and other "Southern" cities was much more pronounced in the past. FWIW, I've never even heard of people refer to places like Tampa, Orlando, or Miami as Southern in any way other than geography until the last few years, and even then mostly online. I do know that when I lived and traveled throughout the south, other southern cities definitely didn't view them that way.
I was cruising around the beaches, going to Rowdies and Bucs games and driving late night with my friends over to Ybor before you were even born. Heck, you didn't even visit another state until 2009. I'm certainly not blaming you for when you were born, but do you think that it's possible, just for a slight moment, that Florida was a bit different then, and that it's possible that many perceptions of Florida by Floridians and people from other places have changed in the last 25 years? I certainly do. And in fact I've come to think that more of FL today general embraces being in the South than it used to.
You've also mentioned that growing up in FL felt isolated from the rest of the country. Now imagine that without the internet! Without any Southern relics other than weird roadside attractions in inland or northern FL, which was flyover land to many of us, many urban Floridians had far more in common with just about any other region than the South (by the way, re-read my last comment- my family was from other places. Like you, I knew no differently. My point, again, was that Central FL reminded my family more of NorVa and Eastside Seattle than Mobile or Macon or even Tallahassee).
Anyway, pre-internet made it feel like Peninsular Floridians-right or wrong- were living in a different cultural place entirely. And in my opinion, the difference between many FL cities and other "Southern" cities was much more pronounced in the past. FWIW, I've never even heard of people refer to places like Tampa, Orlando, or Miami as Southern in any way other than geography until the last few years, and even then mostly online. I do know that when I lived and traveled throughout the south, other southern cities definitely didn't view them that way.
So were you old enough to remember when schools had to be forcefully integrated in the mid to late 70s? I've heard from older locals that places like Brandon were dangerous for black people well into the 80s. Don't get me started on the racial history of places like Miami. I just think a lot of white transplants try to erase the identity and experiences of African Americans in Florida who very much identify as Southerners.
CD's problem is it seems most people's perception of the south here is strictly deep south. The south is not monolithic. Kentucky doesn't act deep south, but it still the south. Tampa is not the traditional south that I grew up in, but it's still the south outside of just geography. There is nothing in Tampa that reminds of LA, New York, or Detroit.
Miami is a little different because of the heavy unique Latin American influence. Miami may have not given off the whole church on sundays, sitting on the porch, and sipping sweet tea, but it doesn't matter, it is still the south. Miami has more in common with other more traditionally southern cities than it does anywhere in the pacific northwest, northeast, midwest, and so on. Same goes for Tampa.
Speaking of which, most of the south isn't like that anymore and hasn't been in generations. The south has bustling cities now, not little Forrest Gump towns. No one in Atlanta is sitting on the porch sipping tea watching the kids play stickball in the street trying to avoid the beat up pickup trucks that drive by and honk hello at everybody.
So yes, Tampa is southern. Being here, the only difference is the bigger tropical vibe and the city being mostly a grid, which is something most southern cities don't do for whatever reason.
These debates always boil down to one of three basic opinions:
1.) State x is at latitude y, therefore south. The end.
2.) "The south" has a,b,c characteristics, this place has x,y,z characteristics, hence not the south.
3.) I've lived my entire life in new England and I visited once and it sure felt like the south to me!
Anyway, no opinion on Tampa. Personally I do consider Miami as being part of the Caribbean region rather than the southeast USA. I also consider places like VA, WV, TX, OK, MO to be border regions that have a mix of regional characteristics. It's not crazy to me that Tampa could be in that category, but I haven't spent much time there.
I think this is one of the more reasonable assessments I've seen so far. Many people are coming to different conclusions, and basing their judgment of one of those three buckets. I also think that perceptions have changed over the years. It's interesting to hear them, and I think they've evolved a bit in the last decades- both for people living in FL and for people around the country and the way they view Florida.
A couple of other points..... First, and I know this sounds strange, but as I've mentioned I think that the internet has a lot to do with self-identification. It connects people in ways that they don't realize, and does play into identities. I get the feeling that more people growing up in the state refer to themselves as Southerners. As others have mentioned, FL has historically felt cut off from much of the rest of the country- and even the region, and it felt even more so pre-internet. Because we had very little connection to any previous culture (and yes, FL's immigration patterns and history were indeed unique- despite what some posters are claiming), we simply didn't relate or have any connection with "country" living. Again, it was very noticeable to me going off to school in NC in the mid-90's that I was now living in the South.
Next, I think there are significant differences in black, white, and other ethnic perceptions, both from an outsider view and as a person living there. For example, as mentioned on other threads, Southern black culture in FL is often perceived as more similar to GA or AL. So, there are differences, and I think it's entirely possible that a black person may view FL's culture as much more Southern in character.
So I'll say again- during the time period I grew up in, no one around me identified as Southern, and when I moved to a very Southern-feeling area, no one regarded where I came from as Southern. The only people who may have at the time were people from "up North" - who lumped everything together- but even they usually differentiated between Central/South Florida and Northern Florida, which was frequently included at least by Floridians as Southern. And you make a good point that people in other "fringe" states exhibit a lot of similar characteristics, and in fact my friends and family in VA, MO, and TX are good examples. Though I'd still posit that FL's development and history was much different in the past, and likely blended more with the rest of the region in the last 20-30 years.
One thing that's interesting to me is how irritated some people on C-D are at some Floridians or ex-Floridians for feeling like they weren't true Southerners. There are a number of these threads out there, and a handful of people that constantly bicker with others and act angry that they do- or that there are ulterior motives always at play for everything. I'm willing to concede things- specifically, for example, that my perspective was shaped in a rather homogeneous, white middle class way, and that although not a big or dominant culture, there were signs of past history around the state.
But I'd also like to see others grant points, as well. Again, I'm simply commenting to help explain why at least around me, so many people from FL did or still do feel somewhat separate from what tends to get generalized as Southern. It was a different place, different time, and I don't think for one second that any of the commenters here acting like Floridians are crazy for not feeling like Southerners would have just worn it with pride twenty or thirty years ago. They would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
If people want to refer to Tampa as a Southern city, go right ahead. I think it fits more reasonably into the Sunbelt/New South definition. There's definitely the same urban/rural divide that occurs around the rest of the country, and some redneck stuff on the fringes. But in terms of the level that the city or immediate Bay Area is steeped in Southern culture? To me, that's a stretch.
Last edited by bartonizer; 03-02-2020 at 10:57 PM..
So were you old enough to remember when schools had to be forcefully integrated in the mid to late 70s? I've heard from older locals that places like Brandon were dangerous for black people well into the 80s. Don't get me started on the racial history of places like Miami. I just think a lot of white transplants try to erase the identity and experiences of African Americans in Florida who very much identify as Southerners.
Nope, I was probably another ten years past that. I can't speak for Brandon, and I'm certainly not denying for a second that there were vestiges of a racial past, which I brought it up on a recent post. I would actually assert that some or even many white transplants that moved there in 1970's disavowed the racism they stereotyped in the South and were somewhat disgusted by it. Again I lived in a pretty white area and had mostly white friends, but we were horrified by the idea of the Confederate South.
But I think your assertion about a lot of white transplants intentionally trying to erase the history of African-Americans is a little much. People were much more guilty of not knowing there was a history of African-Americans in the area and not being curious enough about it- and frequently isolating themselves by choosing to live in suburbs and developments where they didn't interact with people who didn't look like them.
CD's problem is it seems most people's perception of the south here is strictly deep south. The south is not monolithic. Kentucky doesn't act deep south, but it still the south. Tampa is not the traditional south that I grew up in, but it's still the south outside of just geography. There is nothing in Tampa that reminds of LA, New York, or Detroit.
Miami is a little different because of the heavy unique Latin American influence. Miami may have not given off the whole church on sundays, sitting on the porch, and sipping sweet tea, but it doesn't matter, it is still the south. Miami has more in common with other more traditionally southern cities than it does anywhere in the pacific northwest, northeast, midwest, and so on. Same goes for Tampa.
Speaking of which, most of the south isn't like that anymore and hasn't been in generations. The south has bustling cities now, not little Forrest Gump towns. No one in Atlanta is sitting on the porch sipping tea watching the kids play stickball in the street trying to avoid the beat up pickup trucks that drive by and honk hello at everybody.
So yes, Tampa is southern. Being here, the only difference is the bigger tropical vibe and the city being mostly a grid, which is something most southern cities don't do for whatever reason.
I'm curious, how old are you? When I lived in the Bay Area, there was absolutely nothing people or culturally that reminded me anything of the rest of the south-and I'm quite familiar with SC, though I moved west a decade ago. But I think things have changed-maybe dramatically in the last few decades, and in my 15-20 years in NC I noticed migration patterns to FL shift from a more educated Upper Midwest demographic on the FL west coast to a lot more blue collar NC, SC, VA, PA, and OH residents moving down. As I've mentioned earlier, if urban FL has more of a Southern cultural feel, that's actually a more recent thing, IMHO. But again, I think in this day and age the more noticeable divide is between rural vs. urban, so to your point- given the growth of the Sunbelt I'm starting to understand that many people view the cities more comparably in the region than they used to. Understandably.
Last edited by bartonizer; 03-02-2020 at 11:40 PM..
I'm 26, so probably pretty young for CD standards. I've lived in the south my entire life and have been to every southern state except for Kentucky. I went to the Strawberry Festival in Plant City today and after seeing what I saw, my sentiment of Tampa being in the south has definitely been reaffirmed to me. It's not deep south or Appalachian south, but it's south. A Gulf south.
The main things in Tampa, and Florida in general that don't remind me of the south are the layouts of the cities, the climate, the foliage - I miss leaves actually changing colors, and the heavier Hispanic and Caribbean presence. Bu there's southern food, people do brunch, theres rednecks and big trucks, there's poorer diets, there's red areas, there's country music (so annoying), the sweet tea is good enough, and football is still king, like it is in the rest of the south.
CD has these what's southern debates every-single-week. Imo the issue is most people here are thinking strictly deep south when trying to figure out if something is southern or not. The south is a huge area and has a lot of flavor.
Last edited by JMT; 04-12-2020 at 08:17 AM..
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