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Farmers, unfortunately, are few and far between these days. A farmer having to drive to the grocery store a couple of miles doesn't concern me so much. Its the 95% of the rest of the population which does concern me.
The solution to your problem is building higher density. That is what everyone does in the rest of the world, except for America/Canada/Australia/NZ. When the population increases in an area you build apartment buildings, multi-family homes, townhouses, etc. What you don't do is build more single-family homes and sprawl them out all over the countryside.
Americans like this current situation however, so I am not very optimistic about things being significantly different in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by metro223
Here's the way I see it .... just because a neighborhood is new OR in a suburb doesn't mean anything about suburban sprawl, any city or metro with a growing population MUST have this.. it's not a negative thing, yes a lot of them look the same, but if you go into a historic grid neighborhood with bungalows or whatever, you find just as many houses that look the same. How is building a new neighborhood and adding onto a city any different than the way that the city originated in the first place... and if a neighborhood not being walkable is such a big deal, then might as well start casing on people who live on farms, or build a new home on an acerage in the country, because there aren't sidewalks out there either, and they have to run errands SOMETIME, so not much difference....
Very nice neighborhood. See THAT is the type of suburban development I like. Mixed use, higher density, built to scale, and it looks pretty walkable to me.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Maybe when all these McMansions made out of cardpaper are unlivable in 50 years, we can replace them w/ traditional style neighborhoods.
In 10,000 years of world history, Sprawlburbia is just a tiny 60 year blot, made possible by economic conditions (very low fuel & cheap land to build on) which will never happen again. The 'traditional' neighborhood housed the workers building the Pyramids, the citizens of Ancient Rome, and the founding fathers of America. It is back to stay.
Farmers, unfortunately, are few and far between these days. A farmer having to drive to the grocery store a couple of miles doesn't concern me so much. Its the 95% of the rest of the population which does concern me.
The solution to your problem is building higher density. That is what everyone does in the rest of the world, except for America/Canada/Australia/NZ. When the population increases in an area you build apartment buildings, multi-family homes, townhouses, etc. What you don't do is build more single-family homes and sprawl them out all over the countryside.
Americans like this current situation however, so I am not very optimistic about things being significantly different in the future.
You're right, and I don't disagree at all. But I fail to see the difference between a 'normal' grid neighborhood with single family homes that was build in say 1910, and a single family neighborhood build in the 1990's connected to the same town that has curved suburban-style streets which are safer because people drive slower. I think exurbs are the real concern, because they leave the suburbs and the city, while suburbs are basic growth of a town just like the stuff that was going on in the 1920's (pre-"sprawl" days example)
Non-gridded streets makes it so that each individual street is part of a heirarchy. The cul-de-sac will be quiet; but the larger, feeder street will be especially busy and, by virtue of being suburban, will have very little incentive for traffic to slow.
Gridded streets are traditional patterns found in earlier cities. Since it still makes little sense to use side roads, they tend to be as quiet as a suburban counterpart. (they are also narrow, have more parked cars, et cetera that cause traffic to slow).
Take some anecdotal evidence from Des Moines. I'm sure the streets around West DSM are wide and free from obstruction (causing quite a threat to other activities on them). While streets in the more urban areas have natural obstructions that make it feel awkward to drive at any rate of speed comparable to what you would drive in suburbia.
If exurbs are the bigger concern (and they are); new suburbs should be built on a more traditional street pattern. Closer suburbs are the areas that will have to take new growth if exurban growth is to be quelled. This would imply the introduction of alternate methods of transpotation. It is harder to plan, for example, a bus system when streets are in the suburban style. Who wants to be the bus-using pedestrian on a main suburban road?
I feel like I am having the same trouble articulating myself; but hopefully you can understand my point.
Well a lot of suburbs use the grid pattern in their main roads or arteries, and use the subdivision-style streets in the plain residential roads, so the heavily traffic routes basicly square miles between each main intersection. So people in the suburbs using a bus system really may not see the difference in this type of suburb. I do think that suburban residential roads could be improved in their patterns, but I don't think going back to grid with those is the solution either.
i'm not sure of the solution, but new urbanist subdivisions aren't really that much different.. because I know of plenty "cookie-cutter" so to speak style neighborhoods that have storefront shopping within them as well.
When the population increases in an area you build apartment buildings, multi-family homes, townhouses, etc. What you don't do is build more single-family homes and sprawl them out all over the countryside.
And, what if the people do not want to live in the type of density you describe? What if they want their own, private backyard - with their own pool etc?
And, what if the people do not want to live in the type of density you describe? What if they want their own, private backyard - with their own pool etc?
Well, some people think that's not OK. I disagree. I also think that people have to live somewhere. The population is still growing. There is not enough room for everyone to live in a city center.
Well see that's the thing, I feel like a lot of the time just because someone wants to live in a single family home with a yard, they get cased on for contributing to sprawl... It's just reality. Maybe I'm wrong.
Well a lot of suburbs use the grid pattern in their main roads or arteries, and use the subdivision-style streets in the plain residential roads, so the heavily traffic routes basicly square miles between each main intersection. So people in the suburbs using a bus system really may not see the difference in this type of suburb. I do think that suburban residential roads could be improved in their patterns, but I don't think going back to grid with those is the solution either.
i'm not sure of the solution, but new urbanist subdivisions aren't really that much different.. because I know of plenty "cookie-cutter" so to speak style neighborhoods that have storefront shopping within them as well.
There is a difference between grid patterns. A place like Manhattan runs a pretty consistent and straight grid. There are grids with alot of broken streets; parks and natural features that prevent streets from becoming obsessively long. The latter would work better in suburbs. The problem with the current pattern (even with straight arterials) is that those arterials become large (since they carry most trips over a few blocks). When there is a well-trafficed road in suburbia it tends to have few obstacles to high speed. It becomes very wide, hurting the viability of pedestrians along it.
Most of the newer suburbs around here (Mpls.) don't have a straight street in them. The Western cities tend to have more straight roads in their suburbs, as does Detroit.
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